Israel

[Teleman]

Support Israel!!!!! TM

[riser3]

No. Reject Israel AND Hamas. Choose peace.

[RobRoyMeans]

No. Reject Israel AND Hamas. Choose peace.

If there was a way to support the rights of all those people to get on with their lives in dignity and with such grace they may have, I'd be standing in that support line.

Sadly, it's political and there is plenty of negative about the political entities, so much so that it's really hard to glom onto the positives. The young musicians have the right idea with their combine bands.

Feeling that being the chosen entitles a people to the land, no matter who was already on it is at the root of this. That is one sided. Centuries of persecution and suffering do not pay for it all. The situation is tangled up in History and power politics.


"The stove is hot, don't touch it."
Learning remains incomplete
"OW!"
Learning begins

[Dostie]

Support Israel!!!!! TM

Why? and the inevitable...How?

[RobRoyMeans]

Why? and the inevitable...How?

Well, the money is good, so, sell'em guns and planes like usual?

[Teleman]

Had kind of a history rush....Old Testament....Masada''' Diaspora.... Ghetto's...........Pogroms....Racist scum Nazi's....Blue blood State Department sending ship full of refugees to be slaughtered....a few crawling out of demolished ghettos...the beginning of Israel where the Palestinians were told to get out so the Muslim scum could have a free fire zone...Alas Israel survived in a sea of Muslim hate....It's like 200-300 million Muslims rimming Israel to 20 million Jews....and we want to elevate Hamas to the moral equivalent of Israel....the only democracy in the Middle east....Kerry and Obama....be gone....America needs to right it's ship....Teleman

[RobRoyMeans]

...and we want to elevate Hamas to the moral equivalent of Israel....the only democracy in the Middle east....Kerry and Obama....be gone....America needs to right it's ship....Teleman

Bruce, that is some very confounded rambling. It is loaded with internal contradictions. Step back from the keyboard and get some fresh air!

First off, only a fool would equate Hamas with a nation state. To be charitable, Hamas are a political party with a very confounded foundation. Second, Democracy should not be confused for "Goodness": Concerted and century-long genocide, Gunboat diplomacy, AMSTAR in the Caribe , Iran-Contra...to mention only a very few examples of State sponsored avarice emenating from a "Democracy".

Thirdly, how would you work out the details of the hand-over if the Romans wanted their empire back?

The ancient Israel was founded in bloody conquest, a surprise assult. The modern Israel was foisted upon Palistine in the context of a deal the locals could not refuse. There was shooting and then it was a fait accomplis. There are very solid grounds for ill-feeling...forgetting that is unwise.

On the other hand, accepting the PLO and Hamas as unstained social organizations is equaly unwise.

The players are opportunistic bastards (jerks, or what have you) at the highest organized levels....most of the peoples are the sort of people we would want for neighbors. That can be said about most of the governments and nations using the afore mentioned as proxies.

For the USA, it's just another case of the most famous "classic blunder".

[Baaahb]

Israelis can be just as pig-headed as Palestinians. There is far too much pig-headedness in the Middle East. No one deserves our sympathies at this point, everyone merits total disdain until they unconditionally renounce notions of entitlement to land and commit themselves to living in harmony. Jews as a People certainly deserve compassion due to their historic mistreatment, but they are not the only People to have been subjected to genocide and many People have suffered just as brutally and inhumanly as they. For their part, they need to renounce any claim to being a Chosen people...it is part of their religion and like everyone else's similar religious concepts it needs to be firmly and publicly rejected. They aren't there yet; feelings of moral superiority run deep in Judaism just as in Islam and Christianity. Christianity has taken such a beating for it that most Christians scoff at claims of moral superiority due to their religion (say "most" but note that still leaves a sizeable minority, including a majority of some Christian sects)...say what you will but Christianity is significantly more advanced than the other religions in valuing tolerance and forgiveness. I have strong Jewish blood, was raised Christian, and am an equal-opportunity critic of all religions.

[twopass]

Zionists = Nazis

Gaza = Warsaw Ghetto

[Teleman]

1948...three years post Hitler and the Nazi's....Surrounding Moslem states tell the Palestinians to move out for a free fire zone....ALL JEWS ARE TO DIE.....The, in Nazi terms, Rats and Bandits, are facing annihilation...but...the survivors of European Anti Semitism...not only survive but against all odds...(insert Chosen People if you want)...not only survive but demolish the racist Nazi loving Muslim hordes....Me I support the democratic hard working...men and women who have made a "Garden of Eden"....Surly not the terrorist pigs of Hamas....affiliated with Osama slime who if your memory still serves....killed around three thousand Americans....Feel slightly bad for the Palestinians who listened to their brothers and sisters and tried to help them by running....Why are they so poor?....Where does all that oil money go? Not to Palestinians....Oh yeah it goes to terrorist organizations....to kill...not build....Hamas only understands a bullet in the brain....With Obama and Kerry we will feel the pain again as history will repeat and our cities and the people there will feel the heat of hatred....Like the cancer it is, wipe it out....TM

[Baaahb]

dehumanizing other people is not the answer. history is rife with examples of good people who did atrocious things in the name of good principles; there are several examples of this even here in the USA. duh. Germany is a great example, and perhaps easier to see because it is not so close to us as the horrors Americans have done to blacks and native americans. Looking at Germany in 1943 one would have thought they were a barbaric people lacking any morality. do you still feel that way today? (maybe you do, and maybe you similarly condemn all Southerners including the founding fathers from Old Virginia.) we need a Marshall Plan for Palestine, not continued ostracism.

[RobRoyMeans]

It has been clear for some time that we have arrived at the inner suburbs of the usual destination for roads paved with good intentions. Some 68 years ago the first paving of this bloody road began. Partition is about to be obliteration.

The Romani have no country, their treatment by non-Romani through history has been spectacularly bad. Lets set their future by partitioning Israel on their behalf....

See what I mean?

[Teleman]

Seriously....slavery and Indians are equivalent to the Holocaust.....Better start reading some history....AND....don't reread Karl Marks interpretation....Indian society was based on warrior status....We too are serious warriors when turned loose....Part of our "Nature"....sorry if that thwacks you some....Palestinians elect a terrorist organization to represent them.....you get what you elect...Still find it unreal that people support terrorist organizations.....Come election time that too will change.....TM

[Baaahb]

Much of Greek and Roman history, and modern history as well, was also "based on warrior status".

What would you call fire-bombing cities in Japan and Germany if not a terrorist tactic?

What you fail to see is that when you demonize other peoples you are part of the problem, continuing the cycle of hate, fear and distrust, rather than part of the solution.

[RobRoyMeans]

I'm reading some sound statements here. There are things to set aside so as to not get mired down. So far so good.

The gorilla in the room for all this reasonable discourse is that the USA is the worlds largest arms dealer. The US make money when there is conflict. Let us not forget this perverse self-interest that flies in the face of the diplomatic laguage used for public consumption.