Is NTN's butt too big?

[televisionary]

Let me go look again...after dinner.

...and breakfast. .

Okay, I re-did it, and got the same numbers. I think the problem is that Scarpa=/=Crispi. I took some pictures, and though the wide angle lens distorts things horribly, I hope it shows at least the ballpark issues.

The tiny carat mark is where I located the bellows angle and boot sole intersection. But the bellows angles seem to be very different between my Scarpa and the Crispi that's in your pics. That and the thickness where the bellows angle intersects the sole might affect it as well.

Bottom line, I stand by the measurements I took, and the difference from what you expected is likely explained by differences between the boot brands.





Again, the wide angle lens on my tablet camera distorts the apparent measurements in the picture.

[Dostie]

Okay, I re-did it, and got the same numbers.

Roger on that. I believe. Just not what I expected. Thanks for taking the time to add to the knowledge base and double check.

[televisionary]

Y'know, I was reflecting over a sandwich and beer on my theory about the bellows angle differences between brands. It might have a significant effect on how the boots ski. Or it might not...think I'll take a nap and consider that some more.

[Valdez Telehead]

Lets just call it what it is …"rocker toe". The old "plastic" boots flexed real nice.

[tele.skier]

Lets just call it what it is …"rocker toe". The old "plastic" boots flexed real nice.

Dude, you are either, uninformed, or misinformed. You've said a while back that you dislike NTN. Based on the fact that you have never tried it, You should refrain from characterizing something you know nothing about...

Dostie thinks his small boots are stiff flexing, and points out a valid observation about the construction of NTN boots, and why there may be a difinitive cause for his boot stiffness. Based on all my years of NTN use, I would bet that dostie would adjust to the feel of those stiffer boots, and those boots would also soften as he breaks them in. I'm sure that statement is no comfort to him...

Boot stiffness varies by manufacturer with various bellows designs and boot sole thicknesses. The stiffest boots in either 75mm or NTN are the most powerful skiing, and skis can be driven from a very efficient, tall, (stacked) body position more easily using stiffer boots. Granted that stiffness isn't necessarily an advantage touring, but dostie wasn't complaining about skinning in his stiff boots. He was saying he couldn't break the bellows on one of the softest NTN boots made. Only the prophet has a softer bellows, but the rest of that boot is very stiff (and felt wierd to me)

At this point all I can say is, if the force of someone's mass can flex their downhill boot, but not their uphill one, perhaps they should poodle less.... and drive their hips forward to stand more errect so that they weight their back foot more... The most common cause of tippytoe is an unweighted boot......

[riser3]

At this point all I can say is, if the force of someone's mass can flex their downhill boot, but not their uphill one, perhaps they should poodle less.... and drive their hips forward to stand more errect so that they weight their back foot more... The most common cause of tippytoe is an unweighted boot......

Oh no you d'int!!! :0

[riser3]

And absolutely no pogo-stick action!!!

[Dostie]

Dostie thinks his small boots are stiff flexing, and points out a valid observation about the construction of NTN boots, and why there may be a difinitive cause for his boot stiffness. Based on all my years of NTN use, I would bet that Dostie would adjust to the feel of those stiffer boots, and those boots would also soften as he breaks them in. I'm sure that statement is no comfort to him...

It's not about me. It's about how many users may be disappointed. I see advantages to NTN. 75mm has limited out. Granted, it's a limit with some darn good capabilities, but it has plateaued. To go beyond, NTN, or NNTN (newer than new telemark norm) is needed to improve performance - uphill and downhill.

...Dostie wasn't complaining about skinning in his stiff boots. He was saying he couldn't break the bellows on one of the softest NTN boots made.

Umm, I didn't say I couldn't flex one of the softest NTN boots out there, which would be Scarpa's TX. I'm quite happy with their tele flex. I'm disappointed in Garmont/Scott and Crispi boots for those who, like me, are in the smallest size available for a given NTN sole length. For me, that means the 26.5-27 shell size for Garmont's Prophet or Crispi's Evo or Shiver (both around 307 BSL), with the large NTN sole, doesn't want to flex behind the bellows. It flexes fine in front. It is unbalanced. Its tele flex is inferior to Scarpa's, or the equivalent 75mm version by the same brand. So I also think sz 24 and smaller probably don't ski that well, especially for those brands, potentially even with Scarpa.

Ideally the 2nd heel would be in an optimized position to enhance the flex of the boot and bindings could adapt to different sized NTN soles just like they do now. Sort of. Maybe.

[tele.skier]

It's not about me. It's about how many users may be disappointed. I see advantages to NTN. 75mm has limited out. Granted, it's a limit with some darn good capabilities, but it has plateaued. To go beyond, NTN, or NNTN (newer than new telemark norm) is needed to improve performance - uphill and downhill.

Well, As much as you and I both wish that gear keeps getting EVEN better, I think that for most of us,..... our own skill needs more improvement than the gear does... As you said, 75mm is darn capable. T1's and HH's are still probably one of the most powerfull tele set ups out on the hills... (yeah, they don't tour well by comparison)

Dostie, I think your long time participation in tele and your experience with AT give you a vision of what tele gear (in this case boots) could be changed for the better. Personally, I don't think we are going to ever get a "TLT5" level of quality in a telemark boot. I just don't think the manufacturers think the money is there. I think we are lucky to have gotten NTN boots, expecially with how much AT has gone mainstream. When I first started using the lifts to get out to Alpental side country, there wasn't too many people going out there and people would ask me if I was going out of bounds. Now, 10 year olds ski past me to the upper gate and disappear into the BC on their AT gear... I doubt we are going to get a superlight teleboot optimized to tour....

Umm, I didn't say I couldn't flex one of the softest NTN boots out there, which would be Scarpa's TX. I'm quite happy with their tele flex. I'm disappointed in Garmont/Scott and Crispi boots for those who, like me, are in the smallest size available for a given NTN sole length. For me, that means the 26.5-27 shell size for Garmont's Prophet or Crispi's Evo or Shiver (both around 307 BSL), with the large NTN sole, doesn't want to flex behind the bellows. It flexes fine in front. It is unbalanced. Its tele flex is inferior to Scarpa's, or the equivalent 75mm version by the same brand. So I also think sz 24 and smaller probably don't ski that well, especially for those brands, potentially even with Scarpa.

Ideally the 2nd heel would be in an optimized position to enhance the flex of the boot and bindings could adapt to different sized NTN soles just like they do now. Sort of. Maybe.

well, My Crispis are stiff. I supose some people could say that they transfer more power to the ski because of that. The problem is that you have to generate more power to make the boots work. Higher performance skis are the same way.... I like them because I am a heavyweight. Stiff boots and stiff skis both work fine for me. The prophets I had, and sold, are in my opinion, the NTN version of the "telebreeze" boot. A completely horrible boot. Perhaps they feel better to lighter weight skiers, but I wouldn't know.

Scarpa boots rock. I think they got it right, but maybe some small footed people like garmont or crispis... It's hard to know what they think. I don't believe most people have the width of your experience to be able to compare gear like you do. I think most people buy gear and adapt to it until it becomes obvious that it's not working. Then they try something else. We have both skied all three brands of NTN boots. I would bet there aren't 5 other people here who have skied 3 brands of NTN boots...

Anyway. It would be interesting to know if Lonetelemarker's boot sole modification had no ill effects on the longevity of his boots... Maybe someone will pm him.. I see what you are pointing out, that smaller NTN boots are somewhat stiffer because of the duckbutt/sole lenght, but I wonder how noticeable it is to the average tele-skier who I think probably just gets used to it as the boot breaks in...

[Dostie]

While I can wish for better gear, I'd really rather work on my technique. As Steve Barnett likes to point out, "once you learn technique, you own it." It won't wear out unless you/we/I wear out.

At this point, I don't think new gear is going to attract more people to telemark. Tele needs to lure converts on its own merits. Everything we wished for back in the early 90s when many of us were working to grow the popularity of backcountry and tele has been achieved. Now it's up to us to just use it and enjoy it. But then, what would we yammer about?

[WoW]

Everything we wished for back in the early 90s when many of us were working to grow the popularity of backcountry and tele has been achieved.

I'm still waiting for several things and have been since the mid seventies when I started telemark.
Specifically, I'd like to see a free pivot, free heel binding with a wire toe bale that is releasable. I'd also like a pair of skis for the patch skiing in late spring-early summer that I could mount the binding on.
Ramer came close to both, nothing recent that I'm aware of.
Not really interested in the duck butt binding.

[riser3]

While I can wish for better gear, I'd really rather work on my technique. As Steve Barnett likes to point out, "once you learn technique, you own it." It won't wear out unless you/we/I wear out.

At this point, I don't think new gear is going to attract more people to telemark. Tele needs to lure converts on its own merits. Everything we wished for back in the early 90s when many of us were working to grow the popularity of backcountry and tele has been achieved. Now it's up to us to just use it and enjoy it. But then, what would we yammer about?

So you actually admit that the old TTips meme "you need lessons" applies?

[Dostie]

I'm still waiting for several things and have been since the mid seventies when I started telemark.
Specifically, I'd like to see a free pivot, free heel binding with a wire toe bale that is releasable.

Right. I forgot about that releaseable thing. Okay, I'd like to see avy release - a manually triggered ejection mode. I'm not as worried (knock on wood) about safety release but do agree on the desire for better release.

So you actually admit that the old TTips meme "you need lessons" applies?

I wouldn't give the credit on that age old advice to TTips, but agree it applies. Who pays for lessons anymore except beginners and terminal intermediates? All you really need to do is get your friends to film you skiing, and once you see yourself in action usually you know what you need to work on, and perhaps, how severe the correction needs to be, i.e., I need to pay for lessons.

[tele.skier]

the age old "you need lessons" comment was usually made to people who sucked so badly that their forum questions implied that they were doing something fundimentally wrong.

It doesn't matter how proficient a skier you are, If you switch to NTN from 75mm, you will need to make adjustments to your technique to use the very different mechanical geometry of the NTN binding system...

Needing to make technique adjustments because the binding mechanics have changed is far from the admonishment to a clueless beginner to,.... "Take a lesson!"

[riser3]

the age old "you need lessons" comment was usually made to people who sucked so badly that their forum questions implied that they were doing something fundimentally wrong.

It doesn't matter how proficient a skier you are, If you switch to NTN from 75mm, you will need to make adjustments to your technique to use the very different mechanical geometry of the NTN binding system...

Needing to make technique adjustments because the binding mechanics have changed is far from the admonishment to a clueless beginner to,.... "Take a lesson!"

It was also made in jest whenever a "what should I buy" or "why does this gear do xyz" thread came up even for non-ski related items. So it is relevant here as this is a gear discussion. Jeesh, if you have to explain the joke, it isn't funny. Go back to your pogo stick. [For the humor challenged among us, that's an affectionate, playful jab.]