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Is NTN's butt too big?

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  • Is NTN's butt too big?

    It took awhile to amass the evidence, and confirmation from other skiers but I think there's a potential problem with the design of NTN boots. Specifically how the presence of the duckbutt may or may not affect the flex of the sole depending on the size of the NTN sole vs the position of the bellow relative to it.

    Full explanation at EarnYourTurns.com

    The reason I'm cross posting here is I don't have access to all boot models and it would be great if I could get some help from the NTN converts hanging out here to fill in the missing data. I'm looking for the longitudinal distance from the bellows on the distal (outside) and anterior (inside) sides to the back of the 2nd heel. I'll post some photos in a follow up post to show where to take the measurements from. What I'm missing is measurements for Scarpa NTN boots for size 27, & 28 shells, and for Crispi and Scott for 25.5 and smaller.

    For your convenience, here's the graph of measurements I was able to obtain, so you can see what is missing.

    Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by Dostie; 15 July 2014, 07:53 PM. Reason: terminology correction

    ain't no turn like tele!

  • #2
    no doubt those measurements could affect flex, but many other things about the design of the boot can too. No way to tell for sure until skiing the same model boot in large and small sole sized, ideally one on each foot, then switch feet, so everything is taken into account. Craig, luckily you fit a 25.5/26 scarpa shell. based on experience with intuition low, med, and high volume liners, and different thickness foot beds, and tx pros, you could get a 26.5/27 shell to fit well enough. And then you could ski both soles size at once.

    getting the boots and proper liners/footbeds is an exercise left to the reader.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by jasonq View Post
      no doubt those measurements could affect flex, but many other things about the design of the boot can too. No way to tell for sure until skiing the same model boot in large and small sole sized, ideally one on each foot, then switch feet, so everything is taken into account.
      That's what we, jfb and I, did. The phenomenon was absotively confirmed doing exactly what you recommend. I'm just looking to fill in some of the holes in the data on my graph.

      BTW - I'm closer to taking you up on your couch surfing offer for a kiting trip having recently survived two separate hour long sessions in 28 knot winds (avg) with a 9m. Fully lit with both feet on the brakes - so to speak. Realistically not until 2015 though.

      ain't no turn like tele!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dostie View Post
        That's what we, jfb and I, did. The phenomenon was absotively confirmed doing exactly what you recommend. I'm just looking to fill in some of the holes in the data on my graph.

        BTW - I'm closer to taking you up on your couch surfing offer for a kiting trip having recently survived two separate hour long sessions in 28 knot winds (avg) with a 9m. Fully lit with both feet on the brakes - so to speak. Realistically not until 2015 though.

        From what I know,.. kiting isn't as much fun as windsurfing at 28 knots because you can get really [email protected] Granted, you can get hit in the head with a mast too or slammed if you point too high on a sailboard.

        I think you should send me those G3 carbon zenoxide skis with TTS of yours....and I will send you some sails and a custom cascade 8'2" x 21" glass board by gary swanson. It's a slalom/wave hybrid shape to my eye. It has jump padz and pretty new footstraps,.... It's a high wind rocketship... I would even throw in a prized skeg... (which I would discuss with you of course) I have a mixed quiver of sails which are all in good shape. A 3.8 windwing RAF (bulletproof) 4.2 neil pryde wave sail RAF, 5.0 &5.7 Gaastra slalom sails both RAF,.. I gave away my 6.2 mistral RAF, when I sold my equipe. I also have a 8.0 cambered sail which I never sailed because I don't go out in less than 14 knots...

        Let me know if you are interested,... or if you laughed so hard your sides are hurting...

        And,... NTN wise, There are numerous interchangable elements that make NTN feel more *(or less) familiar to those "suckers" who are converting from 75mm systems. A friend of mine who skied switchbacks prior to converting had his reservations about how well they worked when he first started NTN because it felt different,... but now he rips on them and really likes them better. He is a size 28.5. He got Tx pros and he loves those boots. I think the quality of that boot alone will improve a skier's experience because the boot is so comfortable and pretty powerful too.

        I always say that if the binding is working, then it should be invisible. Meaning, we all adapt to it's mechanical properties and incorporate the known familiar feedback it provides into our technique. I like a moderately neutral binding, so I am not looking for a binding to generate any significant tip pressure into my ski. Instead,..... I commit strongly to the fall line to build up inertia, and weight and unweight to flex the $hit out of my skis while angulating to the left or right from a well centered position to steer.... yeah, boring stuff..

        Dostie, I think that I have either adjusted to the mechanical properties of NTN or my big boots make the mechanical properties of NTN reasonably close enough to 75mm so I was able to adapt in a reasonable amount of time. I do have a good horror story about my first days on NTN. Someday, I'll tell you...
        Last edited by tele.skier; 15 July 2014, 08:43 PM.
        the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

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        • #5
          Originally posted by tele.skier View Post
          From what I know,.. kiting isn't as much fun as windsurfing at 28 knots because you can get really [email protected]
          Too true, which is why I rode my Naish windsurfer the next day with a 4.7. Got spanked there too. The ol' WS skills were a tad rusty and my gear is even rustier. I may take you up on that trade but the Zenoxides may be small for you - only 178cm.

          Are you still using Prophets, or did you switch to TX-Pro? If the latter, of course they ski great. If Prophets, your foot is large enough the "dead-spot" in the sole flex isn't too bad for that size and you have adapted. Like I said, ignorance could be bliss.

          ain't no turn like tele!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Dostie View Post
            Too true, which is why I rode my Naish windsurfer the next day with a 4.7. Got spanked there too. The ol' WS skills were a tad rusty and my gear is even rustier. I may take you up on that trade but the Zenoxides may be small for you - only 178cm.
            I sometimes tour with shorter skis on hardpack spring snow. I have a pair of 170cm 7summits that are 5.6 lbs for the pair. They help me keep up on long tours. In that same width, I have 184cm K2 backups which are similar, but closer to my normal comfort length. The shorties save me a lot of energy, but they don't feel real stable at high speed. I certainly would be more interested in the carbon 184's, but my gear whoredom knows no bounds... it's a sickness.


            Originally posted by Dostie View Post
            Are you still using Prophets, or did you switch to TX-Pro? If the latter, of course they ski great. If Prophets, your foot is large enough the "dead-spot" in the sole flex isn't too bad for that size and you have adapted. Like I said, ignorance could be bliss.
            I sold my prophets. The prophets are a wierd boot. They have a very stiff upper cuff, and a soft bellows. It's a stupid design if you ask me. If I was pulling a truck out of a ditch with a chain, I wouldn't hook it to a rubber band to pull it. The rubber band (the weakest link) would always determin the maximum force I could generate to pull the truck before the rubber band broke lose... (why make the cuff stiff, and leave the bellows so soft that it limits the force that the boot can generate?) I wouldn't judge anything about NTN bindings based on using the prophet boot. I know some people really like them. They skied "OK" for me, but IMO scarpa's NTN boots are tits by comparison!

            ....

            I have scarpa tx's for touring and the "uber stiff" original orange crispi evos (for resort use and sidecountry) The character of these 2 boots are mile apart. When I drive the TX's hard, like I normally would do with the evo's, I can feel the boot's shape twist as I load them up, yet they have a good feel to them and flex evenly and predictably even though they are on the soft side. The evo's are stiff everywhere, and I rock them hard inbounds and they are very powerful. If someone tells me I am skiing well when I am wearing them, I usually point to my boots and say, "I'm wearing my Evo boots, I'm cheating".

            I don't worry about the difference in sole flex in my vastly different feeling boots because they both have a predictable feel that I am accustomed to, so they both work well, yet are vastly different. As long as the boot delivers predictable feedback, I can adjust to them. There's a lot more I could say, but most people stop reading after my first paragraph probably....
            the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

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            • #7
              I don't know much about the lines on the graph but the photos in the article showing how the Scarpa forefoot is flat and the Crispi is 'tippy-toed' tell me a lot about the difference in those boots (assuming the wearer was flexing them in the same way). I'm glad I have TX-Pros.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Dostie View Post
                it would be great if I could get some help from the NTN converts hanging out here
                It'd be great if you could swag me some 11.5 NTN boots and bindings so I could participate in these threads.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Grant View Post
                  I don't know much about the lines on the graph but the photos in the article showing how the Scarpa forefoot is flat and the Crispi is 'tippy-toed' tell me a lot about the difference in those boots (assuming the wearer was flexing them in the same way).
                  Although those were photos of flexing the boots statically, not dynamically while skiing, we did our darndest to flex them equally for the photos and believe they are representative of the difference in flex.

                  Baaahb,
                  Sorry, you are simply not qualified to be a boot tester based on your foot size.

                  ain't no turn like tele!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I will confirm that Craig captured my observations and impressions accurately. I normally ski the Scarpa (with the short butt) and the transition from unflexed to flexed is gradual and smooth ("that sweet tele flex") and the transitions were abrupt with the Crispis and Garmonts. To put it another way, the Scarpa had a much (much) wider "sweet spot". As Craig noted, I could get used to the longer butt but it was clearly a step down in performance and "enjoyability" for me.

                    I suspect that the fact that I ski Scarpa TX Pros is one reason I really like the NTN system.

                    Well done, Craig - thanks.

                    FWIW, I weigh in at 150 lbs and (although I think height is completely irrelevant in this, but some folks think otherwise) stand 6'0" tall.
                    Last edited by jfb; 16 July 2014, 09:40 AM.
                    It's turns! Of course it's worth the hike!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dostie, I have 28 TX, TX Pro and TX Comp along with 28.5 older Orange Evos's and can compare those to what you have. I am not sure the exact measurement you are looking for but will be able to help.

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                      • #12
                        Sadly, I think moon colonization is the safer bet. However, I don't have any skin in this game yet.
                        "Nobody ever got my name right." - Me

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I skied some too-big-for-me Garmont Prophets at 27.0 on some large freerides, and currently am in a pair of Scarpa tx-comps at 26.0 on the small freedoms. I agree with your assessment, but I still can't really say that either boot flexed smooth like an axl or hammerhead. Very much has always felt like there was an on or off mode for applying pressure to the ski in a controlled way.

                          But yeah, the tx-comps were much better than the Prophets. How much of it was the incredibly mushy bellows and the stiff cuff on the prophets? Not sure.

                          edit: not sure if I should specify, but i meant that the ntn = scarpa combo never quite had the progressive flex of the t1 and axl/hammerhead
                          Last edited by gofor311; 16 July 2014, 01:42 PM.

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                          • #14
                            I don't know where you guys kite or what gear you use, but 28+ sounds like a killer day to kite to me, many of my best days have been 30+ days. Best day this year was 28-45 average 35. 5m^2 kite was perfect. Overhead swell on the river, yes i said overhead.
                            http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-32659.html

                            I just wish it was 30+ more often. The typical gorge day is west wind, high teens to low 20's from june - mid sept. Then easterlies pick up in the gorge, and 30+ is common for about 2 weeks in the western gorge.

                            as i type this it is 22-31 average 26 and building, and i'm stuck here at work.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jasonq View Post
                              I don't know where you guys kite or what gear you use, but 28+ sounds like a killer day to kite to me, many of my best days have been 30+ days. Best day this year was 28-45 average 35. 5m^2 kite was perfect. Overhead swell on the river, yes i said overhead.
                              http://www.nwkite.com/forums/t-32659.html
                              We were suckered with a lull while getting pumped up. Based on my quiver of available sails, I should've been flying a jib (w-surfing), not a spinnaker (kite). Now stop distracting me with off topic comments!

                              ain't no turn like tele!

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