TTS NTN Adapter Plate

[manitou]

I've been working on an adapter plate for the TTS binding to work on the NTN mounting plate system. I was an early beta tester of the TTS and I started this project about 2 years ago. I had to revise parts of the plate system and address some issues so it's been a work in process. Please understand that these are my opinions and those of a few close friends that I have consulted regarding this project.

I now have a fully functional system that is very strong, possibly over built and a bit heavier than it needs to be. My initial goal was to prove that the system works, which it does and does well!

Even with my heavier, over built prototype version it’s still only about the same weight as a Voile Switchback X2 and lighter that every other 75mm NN touring binding on the market. So it does not compromise it’s touring efficiency at all. Yes it’s heavier that the TTS mounted directly to the ski but what (tele binding) isn’t? The production version will most likely be made of one piece of CNC’d nylon derivative so it will be light (much lighter than the prototype), strong and of an anti ice material.

I am using the Axl heel on a custom 6mm shim to bring the Axl heel up to the 40mm height of the NTN FR binding. I am also using the NTN heel on some of my skis but I prefer the Axl heel. On another note I have the G3 springs and heel bails as well as the Voile SB X2, springs and heel bails. I prefer the Voile's longer travel and more progressive action with the TTS binding. It's still very active but provides for a more natural tele turn.

The TTS is not reliable in a DIN setting type release nor is the NTN. They are reliable in an avi situation and in a catastrophic fall as long as you don’t have the tech toe locked.

The advantages of the TTS/ NTN adapter are three fold:

One; you get superior performance, of the NTN binding active action, the release factor, the step in feature and brakes for the resort and side country type skiing. I prefer the NTN to any other tele bindings and AT or alpine bindings for resort/ side country skiing where you often need to traverse or contour over to ski lines that can leave lock heel skiers struggling or having to lock unlock etc. The boots that work with these bindings also gives you compatibility of the boot in other AT bindings.

Second; you are able to use the same skis and boots to ski the TTS binding (with tech fittings) in the touring, where it is superior to any NTN derivative binding. It really is the best of both worlds. Sure if you spend minimal time at the resort you can get away with just the TTS but it’s not the best binding for the resort and Mark/ TTS actually agrees with this and lets customers know this fact. Resort=NTN, BC=TTS.

Third; You have the NTN plate system installed on your quiver of skis and you can swap the NTN TTS bindings to all of them in just a few minutes. saving time, money and adding versatility! Saftey wise both the NTN and the TTS will release in avi situations that was one of the main criteria for this whole adapter plate. Edit: I plan to make sure the plates work with the newer plastic NTN FR plates as well as the steel plates that I have been using.

I really like the ability to swap the two different bindings between a multiple of skis; my big 184cm Wagners at 115 UF sometimes see the TTS for bigger BC lines but then when I want to go light I swap them onto my 180cm Voile Vectors BC's. I have a number of skis in the plate quiver and could even incorporate a low profile tech heel on some of the skis to add even more versatility to this system. I'm skiing these skis with Scarpa TX Pro's and F1 Race boots.

I'm not looking for a debate as to whether this works or not. What I'm looking for is some feedback and what interest there would be to do do a production run. I have not done final engineering for production nor do I have costs on a production version. Let's just assume that it could be produced and sold at a reasonable cost. Is there enough interest in this adapter for me to take the next steps in moving towards production?

I have discussed selling this adapter with Mark in the accessories page of his TTS binding website, wasatchski.com.

Here are some photos of the working prototype that I have now.

[manitou]

Bumping this thread. Any feedback is welcome! Thanks

[airinwrite]

Interesting, why wouldn't you just make the swap plate from UHMWP and use t-nuts or nothing for TTS mount? Drilled and threaded holes in that would most likely hold up just fine. It would be lighter I think and have less galling on the plate. You could also just drill and tap holes in the newer plastic mount plates for NTN and mount your TTS directly to the plate avoiding any extra plate.

[manitou]

Interesting, why wouldn't you just make the swap plate from UHMWP and use t-nuts or nothing for TTS mount? Drilled and threaded holes in that would most likely hold up just fine. It would be lighter I think and have less galling on the plate. You could also just drill and tap holes in the newer plastic mount plates for NTN and mount your TTS directly to the plate avoiding any extra plate.

Are you referring to my prototype or a production version. In production UHMW will most likely not hold up, I will probably use Delrin but that's the idea, one CnC'd piece of plastic should do it. This prototype went through a bit of a progression. I pulled the mid-foot block threads out of the aluminum so I added the steel inserts at all points and salvaged the plates.

Mounting the TTS to the NTN mounting plates defeats the purpose of this adapter. The idea is to swap quiickly, like <5 minutes from the ski to ski, just loosening the 2 allen head cap screws between the blocks.

I appreciate the questions on the design and the idea but what I'm looking for really is whether others like the idea of going from NTN to TTS using the NTN mounting plate system and the abailtiy to swap the two bindings across a quiver of skis. So you could own the 2 bindings, this adapter plate and just install the NTN mounting plates (steel or plastic versions) and heels on all of your skis. Then move whichever binding to the ski that you want to ski that day.

I hope I am making myself clear on the intention of this adapter!

Edit: I see now what you thought was galling. It's not galling at all and even with the aluminum I had no issues with slding the adapter on and off the mounting plates. What you're seeing is the filing marks on the plates and screw heads. I've been skiing NTN for 4+ years now and what I figured out right off the bat is that you need to face the screws and the plate once you mount them on the ski, to level off the heads and skim off any high spots on the plate. This makes removing and re-installing the binding super easy! I'm sure the plastic mounting plate revision on NTN FR was in response to this issue.

[airinwrite]

I been skiing NTN for a while and never had problems moving the binding on and off the sub plate with the stock screws. If you're looking for a market, I think the newer Freeride with plastic sub plates would garner more attention.

If you had threaded holes in the newer plastic NTN subplate(you could even use t-nuts) I think it would take around 5 minutes to swap and be a lot lighter. I'm not bashing your design I just think they're might be a more simple and elegant execution. I can't see a need to swap in less than 5 minutes from lift served binding to tour binding. Even if you are heading out from the parking lot after a morning of skiing lifts, what does 5 minutes matter?

[manitou]

Trust me on the facing it helps I've got 5 skis mounted with them and it makes a difference for the 10 minutes of work facing them!

I'm not going argue with you on the quickness of the swap because there is no comparison, not even close! 8-9 screws per ski and swapping them anywhere other than your bench is not practical. punching more holes in the thin plastic NTN mounting plate will compromise it's integrity and not hold up. Personally I like the original steel plates vs. the plastic ver. but like I said they made the change to address the issues I mention.

This adapter will work for both mounting plates steel and plastic so that's not an issue. The NTN's either the FR or the Freedom do not tour very well at all and you can't make a proper kick turn with them. Even the Freedom is 3ish lbs. and does not come off of or mount onto the ski very easily. This TTS on a production Delrin plate according to my calculations will weigh in around 2.4-2.75 lbs/ pair depending on the heel used. I' ski these on my custom 184cm Wagners that weight 10lbs and it would be hard to tell if they had 1.5 lbs. more of less weight on them. It's more about how the rig tours and climbs as well as goes down the hill that really matters. I only weigh 150+ish and I don't get too hung up on the weight of my gear. I'm more concerned with how it skis!

To give you some background I've been working in the Outdoor/ Ski industry for almost 30 years now and spent a bunch of time at Karhu. I've been skiing for 40+ years and a bunch of that tele from straight hippy sticks and single leather boots to today's tech. I still have a bit of all of it and use most of it. The point is I have a good basis that is behind my concept with the adapter plate. It does work very well!

I was an early beta tester for Mark/ TTS and have played with all his revisions of the TTS. I like it's simplicity of the TTS and mounting it direct is simple for a dedicated ski. If I was really concerned about the added 1.5 lbs of weight this adapter adds to the ski like on my mountaineering rig FR10's with my Dynafit Comforts, then I would mount them direct for those trips. For that type of SM trip I'll just probably ski my DF rig because it's so stinking light and bomber!

So airnwrite thank you for the dialog! Would you be interested in a set? Anyone else interested? I'm not looking for an order but more on the value of the concept. If eneough people find value in this I will proceed towards production.

[James]

I have both bindings but would not see a need for this plate. IMHO TTS belongs on a super light touring setup and NTN on more mid to heavy weight skis. I have both and put the bindings on the skis to match. I would not want to switch them. That is just me and I am sure some might not agree.

Good luck.

[airinwrite]

Well you seem pretty set and have all the answers, why did you even post asking for opinions? I would tend to agree with James, I use TTS on very light skis that aren't really a match for NTN resort use. I can't imagine how much easier it is to move or take off Freerides from the subplates after facing the screws and plates, after all it takes me less than 30 seconds per ski now. I can make great kick turns with the Freedom, not as facile as Dynafits but very easy. Of course I don't have the benefit of 30 years experience working in the outdoor industry, but I think it's a product without a user.

Trust me on the facing it helps I've got 5 skis mounted with them and it makes a difference for the 10 minutes of work facing them!

I'm not going argue with you on the quickness of the swap because there is no comparison, not even close! 8-9 screws per ski and swapping them anywhere other than your bench is not practical. punching more holes in the thin plastic NTN mounting plate will compromise it's integrity and not hold up. Personally I like the original steel plates vs. the plastic ver. but like I said they made the change to address the issues I mention.

This adapter will work for both mounting plates steel and plastic so that's not an issue. The NTN's either the FR or the Freedom do not tour very well at all and you can't make a proper kick turn with them. Even the Freedom is 3ish lbs. and does not come off of or mount onto the ski very easily. This TTS on a production Delrin plate according to my calculations will weigh in around 2.4-2.75 lbs/ pair depending on the heel used. I' ski these on my custom 184cm Wagners that weight 10lbs and it would be hard to tell if they had 1.5 lbs. more of less weight on them. It's more about how the rig tours and climbs as well as goes down the hill that really matters. I only weigh 150+ish and I don't get too hung up on the weight of my gear. I'm more concerned with how it skis!

To give you some background I've been working in the Outdoor/ Ski industry for almost 30 years now and spent a bunch of time at Karhu. I've been skiing for 40+ years and a bunch of that tele from straight hippy sticks and single leather boots to today's tech. I still have a bit of all of it and use most of it. The point is I have a good basis that is behind my concept with the adapter plate. It does work very well!

I was an early beta tester for Mark/ TTS and have played with all his revisions of the TTS. I like it's simplicity of the TTS and mounting it direct is simple for a dedicated ski. If I was really concerned about the added 1.5 lbs of weight this adapter adds to the ski like on my mountaineering rig FR10's with my Dynafit Comforts, then I would mount them direct for those trips. For that type of SM trip I'll just probably ski my DF rig because it's so stinking light and bomber!

So airnwrite thank you for the dialog! Would you be interested in a set? Anyone else interested? I'm not looking for an order but more on the value of the concept. If eneough people find value in this I will proceed towards production.

[manitou]

I have both bindings but would not see a need for this plate. IMHO TTS belongs on a super light touring setup and NTN on more mid to heavy weight skis. I have both and put the bindings on the skis to match. I would not want to switch them. That is just me and I am sure some might not agree.

Good luck.

I'm asking and i appreciate your opinion and response. I have to ask, don't you ever use a big board in the BC on a big powder day?

Well you seem pretty set and have all the answers, why did you even post asking for opinions? I would tend to agree with James, I use TTS on very light skis that aren't really a match for NTN resort use. I can't imagine how much easier it is to move or take off Freerides from the subplates after facing the screws and plates, after all it takes me less than 30 seconds per ski now. I can make great kick turns with the Freedom, not as facile as Dynafits but very easy. Of course I don't have the benefit of 30 years experience working in the outdoor industry, but I think it's a product without a user.

I'm hearing you and want to understand your position! I'm also answering your questions and commenting on your comments. I've been looking at this for a while now and you guys have seen this for the first time. I don't expect everyone to be gaga over it. I don't own the Freedom and though I like Freeride's I don't see the point in Freedom's. Yes it strides a bit better but the tail does not drop so you can't make a real kick turn.

So you never tour with your big boards and if you do, you wouldn't desire to ski those big boards with the TTS?

Please you can check the attitude here. I'm not bringing any of it in here. I just gave some background on me just so people know where I'm coming from, that's all.

Thanks to both of you for the feedback and responses!

[airinwrite]

You can make snap kick turns just fine with Freedoms. My only beef with Freedoms is that in warm, wet fresh snow you sometimes get snow build up under foot, I've had that problem with TTS as well because of the aluminum blocks with the space between for the heel yoke, it collects snow. In my opinion Freedoms have a better feel than Freerides while skiing and are way better skinning. Freerides and Freedoms both have a fairly predictable release something that TTS doesn't even begin to approach IMO. That said, I really like TTS in spring/summer conditions.

[manitou]

I found that same issue with the TTS mounted directly to the ski and when I had it mounted directly to the aluminum plate in ver1. That's why I have a layer of Delrin on the aluminum. It really helps to release the snow as it just can't stick to it.

I know you can make snap turns with the Freedom but there are times when I'm steep skinning up tree'd stuff and up couloirs where the tail needs to drop to make a clean turn with the least effort. I guess the Dynafit's have spoiled me for lesser bindings! I've been on some mountaineering trips with guides who were absolute Nazi's on the kick turn and they made a huge impression on me.

Thanks again man for chiming in a starting a dialog. This is what I was hoping for. To tell you the truth I won't make any money on this project it's not really about that for me. I love to tinker and invent especially around my passions! I just feel the concept is good and I wanted too put it out there for others to consider.

[James]

. I have to ask, don't you ever use a big board in the BC on a big powder day?

Yes, I have 3 BC setups. Yes I know I need help. I have a pair of BD Converts (nice, light easy to ski, ski) mounted with Freedoms that I ski with TX Pros for long days, hut trips and big climbing Canada trips. I have a pair of DPS Wailer 112 RPC (friggen awesome rip it up ski) mounted with Freedoms that I use with TX Comps for deeper days or most tour for turns days and at the resort on deep powder days. Then I have a spring mountaineering set up that is TTS with La Sportiva light weight toes, Movement Logic X (insanly light ski) and TX boots. I already said I think TTS is more of a uber light set up binding. I know other people use it for more burly usage and maybe some day I will too but as it stands I would not want the Freedoms on my mountaineering set up and would not want TTS on my 112s for sure. I suppose I could put TTS on my Converts but even then I see no need to switch back and forth. Bottom line if you think like me and think TTS is for light use you won't want to switch and if you think like Ben and think TTS is for all around rip it up use then why would want to be able switch to Freedoms???

I am just offering my thoughts and don't intend to discredit your ideas and do wish you the best of luck.

[Gunks Ray]

As a 30+ year product designer and Tele skier I think that the TTS binding on an adapter that would slide onto the existing NTN mounting plate is such an obvious and useful variation of both the NTN Freeride and the TTS that I have a really hard time wondering why Mark or somebody else hasn't figured this out already, the TTS on an NTN adapter plate is a really obvious design. I would be very interested in this setup only if it is made compatible with the existing height of the current NTN Freeride heel height, I don't want to change heel pieces to use it.

I have a few dedicated touring skis with Freedoms on them and I like them quite a bit, I don't mind the slight resistance in touring mode, and I find that it actually helps in controlling the ski while skiing rolling terrain in touring mode. I have no problems doing kick turns with them.

But, I also have a couple of pair of pretty light fat skis mounted with Freerides that I would like to have a better lighter touring option for, the TTS adapter sounds perfect for this, definitely interested.

I also think that a similar NTN adapter plate that would take a standard 3 hole Tele binding like a Voile Hardwire would also be a great product. I've thinking of sending CAD drawings to B+D to see if they would be interested in making such a product.

Married, working, home owner with young child, and skiing as much as I can, I simply don't have enough time to pursue these designs, very happy that somebody else is finally doing the very obvious. Let me know if you need any help in design or testing. Just the other night I mounted up a pair of Praxis BC skis with Freerides, because I had the mounting plates and heels, and I didn't wan to buy yet another pair of Freedoms for a ski I wan't sure I would like. Turns out I like them very much, so it would be great be able to just slide on the TTS adapter instead of buying yet another pair of dedicated Freedoms for them,.

[rip]

Interesting concept, I like it. I'd say if you could come up with a plate that would actually replace the standard NTN plate that would be even cooler. I'm thinking something you could slide your Freerides onto, but also have threaded mounting holes for TTS. About what you have now but a direct mount, instead of on top of the existing plate. Buy a new pair of skis, mount the plate and you are good to go for both systems.

[manitou]

Yes, I have 3 BC setups. Yes I know I need help. I have a pair of BD Converts (nice, light easy to ski, ski) mounted with Freedoms that I ski with TX Pros for long days, hut trips and big climbing Canada trips. I have a pair of DPS Wailer 112 RPC (friggen awesome rip it up ski) mounted with Freedoms that I use with TX Comps for deeper days or most tour for turns days and at the resort on deep powder days. Then I have a spring mountaineering set up that is TTS with La Sportiva light weight toes, Movement Logic X (insanly light ski) and TX boots. I already said I think TTS is more of a uber light set up binding. I know other people use it for more burly usage and maybe some day I will too but as it stands I would not want the Freedoms on my mountaineering set up and would not want TTS on my 112s for sure. I suppose I could put TTS on my Converts but even then I see no need to switch back and forth. Bottom line if you think like me and think TTS is for light use you won't want to switch and if you think like Ben and think TTS is for all around rip it up use then why would want to be able switch to Freedoms???

I am just offering my thoughts and don't intend to discredit your ideas and do wish you the best of luck.

James, I understand your point. I think some people have a slight astigmatism to lighter bindings like the TTS (and tech bindings in general). They are light in weight so maybe they're not meant for bigger beefier skis. The reality is the tech type bindings are a more solid connection to the ski than many bindings because of the metal to metal connection to the boot. We are really seeing more and more skiers using the tech style bindings on bigger skis and also the new designs of tech bindings being designed to higher DIN settings.

I love the DPS W RP112, great ski! It's very similar to my Wagner's my Wagner's are 115 UF and shaped similarly all around. I ski my Wagner's quite a bit with the TTS and love the set up. One of my best buds runs production at Wagner and lives in Ridgway. We ski quite a bit of San Juan BC and on quite a bit of it my big boards are the choice for me. I of course use the TTS for it's superior touring capabilities. I don't really use the TTS at the resorts unless I'm going to be heading out the gates and into side country touring (like we do in Bear Creek outside of T-ride), then I might choose to use the TTS binding. Choices, that's what I like! To each his own, that is most important. Thanks for sharing and your comments! Much appreciated!

As a 30+ year product designer and Tele skier I think that the TTS binding on an adapter that would slide onto the existing NTN mounting plate is such an obvious and useful variation of both the NTN Freeride and the TTS that I have a really hard time wondering why Mark or somebody else hasn't figured this out already, the TTS on an NTN adapter plate is a really obvious design. I would be very interested in this setup only if it is made compatible with the existing height of the current NTN Freeride heel height, I don't want to change heel pieces to use it.

I have a few dedicated touring skis with Freedoms on them and I like them quite a bit, I don't mind the slight resistance in touring mode, and I find that it actually helps in controlling the ski while skiing rolling terrain in touring mode. I have no problems doing kick turns with them.

But, I also have a couple of pair of pretty light fat skis mounted with Freerides that I would like to have a better lighter touring option for, the TTS adapter sounds perfect for this, definitely interested.

I also think that a similar NTN adapter plate that would take a standard 3 hole Tele binding like a Voile Hardwire would also be a great product. I've thinking of sending CAD drawings to B+D to see if they would be interested in making such a product.

Married, working, home owner with young child, and skiing as much as I can, I simply don't have enough time to pursue these designs, very happy that somebody else is finally doing the very obvious. Let me know if you need any help in design or testing. Just the other night I mounted up a pair of Praxis BC skis with Freerides, because I had the mounting plates and heels, and I didn't wan to buy yet another pair of Freedoms for a ski I wan't sure I would like. Turns out I like them very much, so it would be great be able to just slide on the TTS adapter instead of buying yet another pair of dedicated Freedoms for them,.

Ray, I appreciate your comments, you think like me! I shared my initial concept with Mark L. right off the bat and Mark's been very supportive of the idea! He's had his hands full sourcing all of his own parts, the marketing, sales etc... So he really had not time to devote to something like this.

I shimmed the Axl heel to sit at exactly the same height as the NTN FR heel. I use both on my skis, Axl's on some NTN's on some.

I'll shoot you a PM maybe we can work on some of the production design details together. I could also use some help on the prod. documents. Thanks for your comments!

Interesting concept, I like it. I'd say if you could come up with a plate that would actually replace the standard NTN plate that would be even cooler. I'm thinking something you could slide your Freerides onto, but also have threaded mounting holes for TTS. About what you have now but a direct mount, instead of on top of the existing plate. Buy a new pair of skis, mount the plate and you are good to go for both systems.

rip, I don't want to design a new mounting plate for the NTN and my TTS adapter to NTN. My plans are for the TTS adapter t fit onto the steel and the plastic NTN mounting plates. Taking advantage of what's already in production with NTN and what's already out there mounted on skis. The point of this adapter is to slide it on and off and not a have to deal with screws and any direct mounting of either binding. This way you could swap binding on your tailgate or in the parking lot, etc...Where ever, whenever. No loose parts to loose! Thanks for your comments, they are appreciated!