Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Tx Toe Crunch?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Tx Toe Crunch?

    It's been a sub-optimal year here in the Northeast, but we've still been able to spin some good laps, especially after a recent storm finally filled in some of the BC lines.

    I've spent pretty much all season with the Tx (the black and green, not the pros/comps) but the last few days have had some toe crunch on one of my boots. Happens with deeper knee drops and is decidedly a new problem; the boots have served me well for a while.

    I tested different ski/binding combinations this morning on the local bump, and it happens with both the lynx and the outlaw, right boot only.

    I clapped out the Tx liner a while back and for the last month or so I've been using an F3 liner with the laces removed. Looking at the liner this morning shows a massive crease along the metatarsals.

    Any thoughts? Could this just be an issue of the liner, or are the boots getting older and the bellows getting softer?
    Last edited by Dostie; 10 February 2020, 08:56 AM.

  • #2
    QC,

    What is your shell size? Not the mondo size (25.0 or 24.0 etc.), but how much space is behind your heel? Toe crunch tends to happen in oversized boots 'cuz the bellows doesn't line up correctly with your metatarsals (where you flex your foot).

    Take the liner out. With a thin sock, put your foot in until your toes just touch the front of the boot. How many fingers does it take to fill the space between your heel and the back of the boot? If it's more than a 2-finger fit, it's too big. A 2-finger fit is considered a "comfort fit," a 1-finger fit is a performance fit. With tele you tend to want 1.5 fingers. Without a proper liner molding, a 1-finger fit feels WAY too tight. Tight is right, but it needs to be executed properly* to work.

    * - properly excecuted liner molding.
    • Liner heated in convection oven for 8-12 minutes at 170 degrees.
    • Foot has a "sock sandwich" consisting of a footbed and a double toe-cap over the toes, held together by the thin sock.
    • Foot is stuffed in the liner. Care must be taken to make sure the heel cup is pulled back to the heel. A sock of something slippery (cheap plastic shopping bag works) is recommended to put over the hot liner with the foot in it so that it slides inside the boot shell easily. A boot horn is also recommended.
    • Slide the foot/liner into the shell. Before buckling up the shell, lift your heel and the back of the liner then stomp your heel down so it removes any wrinkles that may have formed when stuffing into the shell. Make sure the overlap or tongue portion is smooth.
    • Buckle up - lightly for low-volume feet, tightly for high-volume feet.




    ain't no turn like tele!

    Comment


    • #3
      OR,... you're using your boot as a lever to drive pressure into the tips of your skis in order to steer them, instead of weighting (and unweighting) them to apply force to the ski edge directly underfoot... The softer the boot, the more the driven force from cranking the boot over distorts the shape of the boot. Since the bellows is the weakest point in the boot, that's where the boot collapses with that technique. The good news is you can alter your technique, or buy stiffer boots so they don't collapse under the driven force...

      Stand taller, drive your hips forward, plant the ball of your uphill foot rather than crank the boot over, draw the uphill ski more underneath you and drive your shin into the boot cuff directing it downward at the ball of your foot... Feel the effect of how loading up your ski edges and unloading them corresponds with weighting and unweighting the ski.

      If you do this, you'll be steering your skis from their center (and angulating) rather than pressuring the tips (and angulating)

      My favorite mantra for tele is "hips forward" because if your hips are not forward then you will be leaning your head forward to balance over your downhill ski, which creates a see saw effect where the head forward position causes the uphill ski to unweight to maintain balance. At that point, the only way to control the uphill ski is with boot/binding generated tip pressure, which is the cause of your toe pinch...

      *We all take advantage of boot/binding generated leverage regardless of how "pure" of a well centered technique any of us have. Recognizing what's happening and why is important whether you rework your technique to solve the problem OR buy stiffer boots so the problem goes away....

      I've said many times that I cheat by wearing my Boots of Death at the resort. They are stiff as hell and allow me to apply huge amounts of force to the ski without much of a "tele" if any at all.... It's a good example of the opposite end of the spectrum that your TX's are on. In your case, the boots are so soft that when you crank them over to drive more force, all they do is collapse more.

      edited to add: sorry if technique advise is obnoxious...
      Last edited by tele.skier; 10 February 2020, 09:23 AM.
      the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

      Comment


      • #4
        Dostie, I appreciate the quick reply.

        I just checked the space between the heel and the back of the boot, and i can't quite get 2 fingers in there. It's entirely possible i have meaty little banana fingers, though.

        The bellows seems to line up with the metatarsal, but the toe crunch issue is new on the heels (pun intended) of 30+ days already this season with these boots, and more previously. Does that indicate the boots might be too large, and my fingers too fat?

        Comment


        • #5
          QC,

          Sounds like you have the right size shell.

          On second read it sounds like the new liners are the problem. Might need to re-cook 'em for the TX's. Or get a new liner.

          You might also try this band-aid I've heard of that sometimes works. Tape a shim of thin plastic (like from a milk jug) over the top of the liner spanning the region around the bellows plus and minus about an inch on either side. Sometimes that helps to distribute the pressure so it isn't concentrated at a point.

          ain't no turn like tele!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by QuentonCassidy View Post
            Dostie, I appreciate the quick reply.

            I just checked the space between the heel and the back of the boot, and i can't quite get 2 fingers in there. It's entirely possible i have meaty little banana fingers, though.
            If you can use a 3/4" dowel or something like that, I think it's much easier to measure the gap behind your heel by sticking that into the gap than bending down and sticking your own fingers behind your heel. IMO, you don't want more space than 3/4".

            As someone who started on boots that were too big, I completely agree with Dostie.

            Comment


            • #7
              Put a shim under the inner boot. It will take up the space that results in the extra material that causes toe chop...

              ... too much vertical volume can cause problems.

              Comment


              • #8
                Todd is correct in that you have excess volume in the toe box of your boot and you need to fill up that volume to eliminate the toe crunch. It does sound like your liner is packed out. You can also reheat and remold it. The refresh will help along with a footbed shim.
                Function in disaster, finish in style.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dschane View Post
                  If you can use a 3/4" dowel or something like that, I think it's much easier to measure the gap behind your heel by sticking that into the gap than bending down and sticking your own fingers behind your heel. IMO, you don't want more space than 3/4".
                  Yeah, it sounds so simple to just fit fingers behind heel, but it's not that easy. And in what orientation are the fingers? Fingers side by side are wider than on top of each other. Better to use standard measure units than fingers. A variation on the dowel to measure space behind the heel in the shell is to use a socket set by putting various sized sockets onto a long extension and slipping that into that space. The slim shank of the extension fits easily, then just measure diameter of the best fitting socket. Keep sizing up in sockets until you get one that just fits.
                  Last edited by Dostie; 13 February 2020, 09:32 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    [QUOTE=Hindfoot;n99954]
                    Originally posted by dschane View Post
                    If you can use a 3/4" dowel or something like that, I think it's much easier to measure the gap behind your heel by sticking that into the gap than bending down and sticking your own fingers behind your heel. IMO, you don't want more space than 3/4".

                    Yeah, it sounds so simple to just fit fingers behind heel, but it's not that easy. And in what orientation are the fingers? Fingers side by side are wider than on top of each other. Better to use standard measure units than fingers. A variation on the dowel to measure space behind the heel in the shell is to use a socket set by putting various sized sockets onto a long extension and slipping that into that space. The slim shank of the extension fits easily, then just measure diameter of the best fitting socket. Keep sizing up in sockets until you get one that just fits.
                    That's a great suggestion.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The space behind the heel is just one dimension, the length. You need to address the volume of the boot to deal with the toe crunch.
                      Last edited by Allan Fici; 13 February 2020, 09:04 PM.
                      Function in disaster, finish in style.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I had toe crunch with my early (yellow) TX boots in Freeride NTN bindings. Especially skiing steeps, and getting low. Went to the TX Pro, and problem stopped.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          QC,

                          Any luck?

                          I am having a very similar experience - Green/Black TX’s that have been great for ~5 years and now: Toe Crunch.

                          I just switched to new liners (Intuition Pro-Tour MV) and just switched from Rotte Freedoms to Meijdo. I think both may be part of issue as the Pro-Tours felt more roomy than previous bladders and I think I have the Meijdo set a little more active than I had Freedoms - not sure. Only happens on deeper turns.

                          This thread was great - Thank You!! I definitely have too much volume so I added about 6mm of footbed/shim and made the milk-jug caps. Haven’t tried them yet. I may also get a thicker in-sole (guy at shop recommend a green super foot - or something like that?!).

                          Curious if you’ve improved your situation. I’ll let you know how my mods work out...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Mike, it seems like my problems were a clapped out liner, though i'm definitely more aware of my form. I wound up grabbing a pair of Palau All Track liners and have been totally fine since. It felt like sacrilege moving away from Intuition, but the Palau liners are much lower volume around the cuff and feel great. They are also a different green than the Tx, which clashes just enough to look uncomfortable (but looks, i think, great).

                            I also took Dostie's advice on fitting the liner to the boot. Since making the swap, i've toured a few times in the Whites and Greens and it feels like a new boot.

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X