Binding comparison...

[Rodbelan]

I am looking for articles, bench test, etc about cable bindings... There was something interesting on TTips... that is now lost. I would like to see a mechanical comparison between cables that run around the heel and cables that run under. I did some reserch with no results. Have you seen something?

[Dostie]

Can you be more specific? The graphical data is historical stuff from TTips AND the pages of Couloir. I can pull a lot of that out and repost but I think the short version of all the "research" that was done on the subject is that underfoot cable routing is more "active" because the tension starts sooner as the heel is lifted and side-routed cables engage slower and thus, feel less active. Actually, you're reminding me of some independent research that was done that I have yet to publish, so it sounds like I know what my next major project is.

[Rodbelan]

Can you be more specific? The graphical data is historical stuff from TTips AND the pages of Couloir. I can pull a lot of that out and repost but I think the short version of all the "research" that was done on the subject is that underfoot cable routing is more "active" because the tension starts sooner as the heel is lifted and side-routed cables engage slower and thus, feel less active. Actually, you're reminding me of some independent research that was done that I have yet to publish, so it sounds like I know what my next major project is.

Thanks for the answer Craig... You will have a reader for your project to publish (if it was in french, you would have a redoutable reader; I have been a publisher for many years). And yup, I knew that the later ones were more active. But, it seems that there is lot of subtle nuances from the 3 pin cables to the Cobra and from whatever to the 01 (or Burnt Mountain D & 22 Design bindings which are a bit different mechanically speaking). Could you post the «old» studies from TTips and Couloir? Well if it is feasable...

[tele.skier]

I think the short version of all the "research" that was done on the subject is that underfoot cable routing is more "active" because the tension starts sooner as the heel is lifted and side-routed cables engage slower and thus, feel less active.

Prior to the development of underfoot cabling, "activity" helped break the bellows of a boot, but did NOT develop greater ski tip pressure as the skier raised the boot heel because with the cables on the side of the boot, the cables actually shortened slightly as the skier lifted his heel after the bellow began to break.

Once the underfoot cable was developed, the higher the heel went, the more the cable compressed the springs and the more pressure was driven into the tip of the ski. This binding generated force made the ski react much more quickly to skier input, and spawned a variety of techniques using different proportions of binding generated tip pressure... (HH's on setting 5, is an alpine binding to me)

In general, skis react more aggressively to skier input with active underfoot cabled bindings, and allow a skier to "drive" the ski with greater confidence.

Skiers who don't rely on binding generated ski tip pressure have to ski more intuitively to make up for less binding induce leverage.... I could write a book on this stuff.... They tend to "ride the ski" from a well centered position, rather than drive the tips back and forth with binding induced tip pressure...

BUT,......Underfoot cables rock.... period. Even if you have them set with less spring tension so they don't generate a lot of force. For beginners, the sooner they feel their skis react to their input, the sooner that skier commits to the turn and learn how it feels. Having the ability to crank up the binding leverage gives skiers a learning advantage that they can change later if they find they prefer less heel retention somewhere down the line...

IF you ski with plastic boots, I wouldn't recommend any binding that has side cables,.... except maybe TTS, because it's mechanical geometry is already configured to produce a large amount of binding leverage.... Targas are a waste of money if you ask me, as are Rivas and R8's, and any other binding that has side cables...

I could ramble on further,... but I think I said enough......

$.02....

[Teleman]

The binding helps the bellows flex.......ha...hahahahah...snort....sorry....carr y on....TM

[freeheelwilly]

I'm pretty damn sure that everything teleskier just wrote there is "true" as far as it goes. What I don't understand is where he summons the enthusiasm from, year-in and year-out, to think about and discuss this stuff at such a granular level. Everybody I know that skis - just skis. Sure, we'll talk a little bit about equipment, mainly general observations about how a particular ski performs, but I've never heard anyone discuss the engineering characteristics of bindings like happens here. For example, I've never heard anyone outside of TTips talk about active/neutral bindings. Ever. In fact, I'm quite sure that most of my buddies that tele have no idea what that is and don't care to know. Equipment is just in the background. Unfortunately, I know what the difference is between an active and neutral binding but I wish I didn't. It makes me feel like an obsessive-compulsive idiot. It does nothing for my skiing or my enjoyment of skiing. I wish I could "un-learn" it.

BTW, I make this point because TS seems like a pretty normal dude; there are some here that obsess over technical minutia but that's consistent with their otherwise meaningless existence. I would never want to spend even a single moment with those guys for dozens of reasons and the fact that they spew techno-babble from morning to night is just one of them.

TS, are you in the business? If so, that would explain it I guess. Otherwise, how do you maintain this interest in what is, at the end of the day, pretty mind-numbingly boring stuff?

[Quadzilla]

I think TS explained the mechanics of the two pretty good and the advantages of underfoot cables. However, IMO, the ability to "drive the tips" is overrated now days with modern new school skis with lots of rocker. But if you ski trad skis it is good to have alot of activity and early engagement to get power to your edges. The bigger the ski the more power is needed and underfoot cables can deliver that. Additionally, IMO, Voile Switchbaldes and Voile X2's which are side cable, ski very well but they have rods not cables and are well designed but don't have the force of a O1 or Hammerhead. Bottomline, match the bindings/boots to the skis and conditions you want to ski.

[freeheelwilly]

The binding helps the bellows flex.......ha...hahahahah...snort....sorry....carr y on....TM

And then there is this type of mess. Give it a few more years though and this will just go away on its own and thankfully there's no "younger generation" ready to pick up that stupid torch.

[tele.skier]

Willy, I am sure you'll find me a little wierd if I answer you truthfully,... but I like to tell the truth most of the time... at least..

As a kid, I took apart everything to see how it worked... It got to the point where my parents had a drawer where they put any broken gadgets so I wouldn't disassemble the family television while they weren't around. I am OCD with mechanical objects.... I rebuild everything, and/or waste days of my time compulsively analyzing mechanical stuff that turns out to be unfixable, or a huge sinkhole of time and money (like my mercedes.... ugh)

I'm OCD at work too. Sometimes I do the impossible, sometimes I make the simple into the overcomplicated...

As far as bindings and analyzing them. I am an old goat. I have 30 years of tele behind me... I once thought skiing in plastic boots was cheating,... until someone pointed out to me that the boots I was wearing had a plastic shell sewn into the cuff underneath the leather,.... Just like Grampatele's favorite "andrews boots" (Ironic eh?) I changed my tune and embraced the "new gear" but still liked the turn...

My OCD carrys onto the site here, same as it did on teletips. I hate to see people giving out bad information about gear... Mostly, that's my mechanical OCD kicking in.... I also learned a lot by comparing my observations with other smart people who posted here and at TTips in the past.

I'm a gear whore,.. and OCD nutcase when it comes to mechanical objects. I have rebuilt a few car engines to various degrees, my 69 Norton commando completely, and other woodwork machinery. I think my obsession with bindings came from the frustration of seeing slowly evolving tele gear that didn't materialize until recently.... In this thread, I was just trying to make sure that people realized that powerful binding generated leverage is the result of the developement of underfoot cables. Prior to that, the best way to generate tip pressure and get the ski to repond faster was a wedge under your binding... Side cable bindings work ok, but are old technology and are mechanically different than underfoot cabled bindings....

I realize that the things I post are not important to a lot of people... If they help a person or two pick the better gear, I'm ok with that result...

BTW,... grampa likes these certain andrews boots... that have a plastic cuff sewn into them... It's kinda funny to watch grampa rant about plastic and modern gear when the Andrews Northrims he covets has a layer of plastic reinforcement sewn into the boot cuff under the leather...



Ultimately willy, I love to ski. My gear OCD is just an extension of that. On the trail, I don't talk about gear. I scope my line and concentrate on whatever dangers the day's conditions require me to consider... I am sure I am an idiot to some and not completely idiotic to others....

[freeheelwilly]

I got you TS. I still think you're within a standard deviation of "normal" and your response confirms that. You just owned it and didn't try to make it seem as if I was the weird guy for not caring about this stuff. I actually know quite a few people that love to take stuff apart and see how it works (in fact, I've been known to do a bit of that but less and less as I get older) and I don't think that's any less "normal" than any other hobby or pastime.

And its awesome that Grampatele skis with plastic boots. And still sucks.

[dschane]

I'd buy T.S. a beer, hands down, though I'd be listening to the physics part of the chat with an unabashed blank stare. Embrace the weird; everyone's life is meaningless to nearly everyone else except himself. Extremely few make a damn bit of difference in their short existence, so f--k it, be weird and multiply (if you can handle that).

To the point here, I tend to agree with Willy that some obsession over activity is high, but it also gives you some vague point of reference if you're looking at new gear. Rod, this chart may have information you seek:

http://www.earnyourturns.com/13176/telemark-binding-selection-chart/

I've never skied with underfoot cables. I think light, neutral bindings with a free pivot are the sh-t and enjoy getting tossed around at high speeds, unless it's icy out, then I'm a p-ssy who remembers what it feels like to break a collarbone and get fat for 8 weeks. I've tried one relatively active binding (and continue to do so on rare occasion) and still have not found the love there.

[fogey]

I got you TS. I still think you're within a standard deviation of "normal" and your response confirms that. You just owned it and didn't try to make it seem as if I was the weird guy for not caring about this stuff. I actually know quite a few people that love to take stuff apart and see how it works (in fact, I've been known to do a bit of that but less and less as I get older) and I don't think that's any less "normal" than any other hobby or pastime.

And its awesome that Grampatele skis with plastic boots. And still sucks.

Being normal is overrated.

[freeheelwilly]

Being normal is overrated.

I don't disagree. I didn't mean "normal" as in the non-descript, boring, white bread, lowest common denominator sense of the word. I meant "normal" as in not creepy, not a little insane and not completely lacking social skills.

[dschane]

I meant "normal" as in not creepy, not a little insane and not completely lacking social skills.

Well, despite the obsessive gear chatter and cyclical debates about the same inane matters, the actual list fitting that description is probably fairly small. But maybe I have an unrealistic view of humanity.

[Rodbelan]

and not completely idiotic to others....

Your OCD, as you are saying, is a great motive for learning and sharing your knowledge. I am very glad I can interact on the web with such «weird» people. Thanks again.