Publishing Beta

[revloren]

I believe this is a newish site:

http://www.skitahoebackcountry.com/

It has some decent beta, pics and even a nice chart, but it is sure to revive the 'keeping the secret stash secret' debate. This was covered somewhat in the Giving It Up thread. I personally don't see the problem. Most of these spots are well known already, and publishing alternatives may actually serve to spread out usage.

If you really don't like crowds just go further, get creative and use your imagination. Or just get an earlier start! Even in the areas covered in this guide I have stashes that aren't mentioned.

Judging by the comments on the Unofficial post of this site, there are still those out there who take exception to advertising their personal BC stash.

[Baaahb]

As with mountain towns, those who complain loudest about the newcomers usually aren't the people who "discovered" it in the first place.

It is an impressive website.

[Charley White]

I'm a big fan of what Guttenberg hath wrought. Particularly like printed cartography tradition of Vespucci, Lewis/Clark, TOPO on down. Don't really follow what the bookburners write. Look forward to reading this.

[revloren]

Mike at the owner of The Backcountry (a local gear store) used to have a link on the store's website that took you to a pretty useful Tahoe BC guidebook he wrote, complete with maps and descriptions. I wonder if he took it down because people whined about exposing their favorite private BC stash. I made copies of most of it if anyone is interested.

[Danno]

Too bad TTips is gone, the Wolf Creek thread was a classic (and I have that guidebook if anyone wants it).

I've always been somewhat conflicted, in that of course I don't want more people showing up at "my" spot, and usually prefer not to post full beta where anyone can access it, but rather offer beta directly to a person (eg, I'd never repost the Wolf Creek guide, but am happy to share it with anyone). That said, I cannot begrudge anyone who publishes stuff like this, because guides are invaluable when you don't have the time/money to "waste" time exploring new areas without reaping some benefit.

[godwin916]

Mike at the owner of The Backcountry (a local gear store) used to have a link on the store's website that took you to a pretty useful Tahoe BC guidebook he wrote, complete with maps and descriptions. I wonder if he took it down because people whined about exposing their favorite private BC stash. I made copies of most of it if anyone is interested.

I believes Mike's guide is still there, but you have to drill down into his forum.

[LightRanger]

Mike's guide is/was way more comprehensive than this. And unofficial posters are... well, yeah. There are only 2-3 destinations on that list that I don't think of as regular hits on either the North Lake or South Lake circuits. They're all in guidebooks.

[thornton]

If you really don't like crowds just go further, get creative and use your imagination. Or just get an earlier start! Even in the areas covered in this guide I have stashes that aren't mentioned.

I noticed the author describes experiencing solitude in the narrative for several peaks and areas. IMO, that's a limited resource that a new guidebook can contribute to changing.

regarding, "If you really don't like crowds just go further, get creative and use your imagination": IME (and observation), many of the locals (w/ this guidebook, I unfortunately put myself in this category) have their go-to places that they prefer and are familiar with. they know the terrain, access, best skin routes, etc. they continue to repeat these handful of locations because of all of these factors combined with the fact that they have jobs, family, and other obligations. for them, it's BC access and availability to get in a quick run that partially drew them to the area or at least has been a reason they are still sticking around.

imo, the guidebooks are one thing, the TR's and constant condition updates to easily accessible touring areas are another. the TR and conditions updates have been game-changers in usage and user patterns.

regarding one of my little slices of paradise, the "guidebook" is fairly vague and does not describe some of the complications of the area. though i wish that it wasn't mentioned at all in this "book" (I learned of the area via word of mouth and exploration), i am sorta glad about some of this vagueness and hope that i don't see any very specific TR's posted w/ current conditions. last year, tgr mags started to make some groundrules about posting current BC conditions and locations. i thought that this was a good idea and some of the original culprits on ttips and tgr were participating in that discussion.

last thing, i think that it's funny that tallac is listed as "south lake tahoe". i always thought that it was a north lake destination, at least when 89 is open

[bergbryce]

I'd personally like to see less publishing of BC skiing areas. Sure, some of it is fine, but not all of it. Some places need to stay word of mouth. I'll probably get nailed for saying this, but that is (or at least used to be) some of the value in being a local, or at least living local. Okay, or at least skiing in an area enough that you meet people who might show you a place to ski you did not know about.

I don't feel this way only because I don't want to share great spots, but there are many places that simply don't have the "facilities" to support much of a user base. By facilities I mean something as simple as a plowed pullout, or sliding quietly through a small patch of private property, or some other small barrier that isn't an issue as long as the numbers are minimal. Something like parking limitations can quickly turn a once off the radar spot to a newly closed spot, due to people parking in what the Forest Service, the Highway Patrol or the local Sheriff determines is creating a hazard.

Agencies like the Forest Service can to point to user groups and usage of their lands as means to justify more $$ being brought into their district, and future "improvements" to be added. These "improvements" like official trailheads, toilets, signage, trail building, etc. also means more regulation, which could mean any number of things, including restrictions on what is done on those lands. Who remembers Joshua Tree Monument?? Fortunately, BC skiers have for the most part, flown under the radar as a user group. I think this is primarily because we are a relatively low-key user group, and once the snow melts, signs of our passage does too (for the most part).

I don't think anyone will argue that as a group, backcountry skiers are growing in numbers. Personally, I'd like to see the apex of the population hit sooner rather than later, that's another discussion altogether... but as those numbers grow, that under-the-radarness of our group will become a blip on the radar of various agencies. Actually, I'm sure it already has as people have been touring in the woods for decades, but the increase in trailhead traffic in the past ~10 years certainly has been noticed. Not to mention some unfortunate accidents which make for rather sensational journalism.

I guess the big take home is that I hope increasing numbers of backcountry skiers doesn't lead to any sort of restrictions beyond what may exist already. And that is the pattern that has played out over and over again for participants in various activities.
NPS, NFS, BLM.... "Oh you're activity is popular now, so we have to "manage" it.

[Baaahb]

last thing, i think that it's funny that tallac is listed as "south lake tahoe". i always thought that it was a north lake destination, at least when 89 is open

I think that is funny, in the sense of peculiar.

The world has a major - critical -- problem with overpopulation and all that implicates. IMO, possibly our most serious challenge, globally. However, that's a separate issue.

I think it's great that more people are getting out to enjoy the winter and elitist to think that this is bad because that impacts one personally. Being local doesn't give one greater rights to an area...heck, that's one of the founding principles of our Constitution. Plus, I've travelled a lot of places for a long time and due to my increasing age, my use and "discovery" of a lot of places predates those who now consider themselves "local", even if I happen to be flying in and renting a car.

I might feel differently if I saw a real problem overall with crowding but I don't - at least with regard to non-motorized recreation. Yes, greater efforts need to be made to disperse use, but there still is a lot of land that sees very little activity. Everybody crowds around Tahoe cause first tracks and solitude is less important than scenery and popularity. That's the breaks of being "local" in America's Vacationland.

Due to the Tahoe basin being the most densely used national forest in America, and the fact that motorized recreation "consumes" snow and tracks out areas much faster than human-powered recreation, one must question whether motorized use is the best use of this land for the greatest number of people.

[thornton]

Yes, greater efforts need to be made to disperse use, but there still is a lot of land that sees very little activity.

any proposal for how that gets done? one thought is more "guidebooks" that describe more places not in previous books. (the new online "book" includes a lot of places outside the tahoe basin...). the problem with this is what bergbryce mentioned, lack of infrastructure and "facilities" to support more users. for instance, one of my favorite places has between 0 and 4 parking spots (car or small truck-size), depending on the plows. i know that there are similar parking issues at some of the slt areas described in this recent online resource and the most recent "print-based" book. I think that this issue can partially be overcome, but will take some consistent coordination with Caltrans or the counties, but i still think that it's a constraint and issue that may not be easily resolvable (e.g. rubicon).

Everybody crowds around Tahoe cause first tracks and solitude is less important than scenery and popularity.

do you have some real data for this? i'm curious. note: the online book includes many areas outside of the basin.

up-to-the-minute conditions posted on public forums are the largest contributor to the concentration of use in specific areas. the mtns next to grass lake, near slt, were fairly high use before chat forums and before being featured in guidebooks (you can see the mtns from the road), but the after-the-fact and later-in-the-day "sharing" about conditions on online forum, almost exclusively on ttips at first, made it overrun (e.g. no parking in the large pullouts), especially on weekends. i have been guilty of letting TR's and current conditions threads dictate and help make decisions, sometimes to my dismay.

[LightRanger]

up-to-the-minute conditions posted on public forums are the largest contributor to the concentration of use in specific areas.

I concur with this. I also know that your favored place that's vaguely described on that new site isn't going to become a regular hit. It only really makes sense for Foothill or maybe Sacto dwellers. No nearby lodging and too long of a day trip for Bay Area folks. And more convenient stuff for Truckee peeps.

I'd like to hit it with you on a trip to the folks' house sometime this winter though.

I've also heard underground rumblings about amazing sled-accessed skiing in the Grouse Ridge area. The north side of Black Buttes would be sick--but only really convenient with a sled, or a multiday trip. Can't ever recall seeing winter TRs from way back in there. All that stuff is too low to become known as reliable BC stuff, but, man, there is some fantastic terrain back there. I can email pics...

[Nurse Ben]

The increase in user #'s is due to increasing populations (SLC, Taho) near "your stash", the solution is to move somewhere with fewer people...or go deeper.

Move now and avoid the rush

[Dostie]

The increase in user #'s is due to increasing populations (SLC, Taho) near "your stash", the solution is to move somewhere with fewer people...or go deeper.

Nah, I think publicity about the sport and places people have gone is the main culprit (guilty as charged). The solution is not to limit access, but expand it with more trailheads. Unfortunately that would mean funneling some of the more than ample (er, excessive, repressive, debilitating) tax revenue collected by the Fed and States into peaceful, useful projects instead of their war machine. Sorry for the political overtone, but that's a fact. As soon as you go to a less popular trailhead I'm sure you'll find more untracked terrain and solitude. It doesn't take much.

[Baaahb]

More efforts could be made by the State and the Forest Service to promote ski opportunity north of Tahoe in the Plumas, such as from Bassett's to Sierra Buttes, but the Plumas is generally regarded as snowmobile territory and that keeps some people away. I think there are similar opportunities and problems south of Tahoe, off highways 4 and 108, but am not as familiar with the areas.