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Transition from Duckbill to NTN help.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by hafjell View Post
    Both, please. But if you're short on time, the latter.

    Day two was better. Still wobbly, still can't get as much separation between my feet fore-to-aft, but it's more stable, and the rear foot is tracking a bit more.
    Since I've made a career here explaining why NTN is a different kind of lever than75mm bindings with a duckbill, I'll try both answers...

    With a duckbill and an underfoot cabled heel connection, a skier can lift his heel and the binding's heel resistance drives force downward onto the ski in front of the boot's bellows to pressure the ski. The more he drives his boot forward and extends his real leg, the more binding leverage he generates. This is how underfoot cable binding leverage works.

    With NTN bindings there's no heel resistance, so lifing your heel doesn't generate the type of binding leverage forces that a lot of active 75mm bindings do. If a skier is accustomed to a certain force being generated by a binding, he will adjust his technique to use it. (we all do that with any binding we chose) When those forces all of a sudden are no longer there (like when he switches to NTN) he either has to adjust his technique or go back to a binding that generates the force he is accustomed to using. Pretty simple, don't you think?

    Because NTN doesn't generate a lot of binding leverage (ski tip pressure), it isn't the best choice of binding for "knee to ski" technique because cranking the boot forward with NTN, bends the boot without driving as much ski tip pressure as a binding that has a heel cable which retains the boot's heel to drive that force.

    NTN has some different advantages. With the boot and binding interface more under a skier's ball of foot rather than on a duckbill in front of their foot, the sensation of edging the ski is more immediately felt and controlled directly underfoot with NTN. You've given up the extra tip pressure, but moved the center of effort on the ski more underfoot.... The way to power that underfoot center of effort is not to crank your boot forward, but to stand in a "stacked position" and draw your backfoot under your center of mass... so you are standing on the ski rather than cranking binding leverage into it. I tell people who try NTN to exaggerate their "hips forward" position so they will be in the stacked postion unable to drive their uphill ski backward into the poodle position. After a few turns chanting to themselves, "Hips forward" they feel how the turn works with a tighter, weighted back foot,...... and after they experience that, it's all about practice time until they develop their NTN technique more. (and of course either like it more, or not)

    One of the feelings that is generated from the hips forward, stacked position is the "drive the cuff" feeling, where once you get some feeling for the taller stance technique, it feels like you get the most power by driving the cuff of the boot down over the ball of your foot with your shin,.... hence the term, "drive the cuff"....

    Please mail me $8. dollars for your first internet lesson.. Thank you... now I have to do some work...
    the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

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    • #62
      I know tele.skier and I differ on this but- NTN feels very similar to me as any other active binding (had O1s before NTN, and HH 5 before that). I made no technique adjustments.
      Reluctant enthusiast, part-time crusader, half-hearted fanatic

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      • #63
        Originally posted by cesare View Post
        You want less not more separation fore and aft. Drop your center of mass directly over the ball of your rear foot and don't forget to edge it.

        If you are used to using the boot as a lever, you will have to change your habits because that is a recipe for hating the NTN.
        Thanks for the reply. I'm not forgetting to edge either ski.

        How many inches behind the heel of your downhill foot is the toe of your uphill foot?

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        • #64
          Telemark is never static like that. Think instead of keeping your rear heel pretty much right under your butt. The exact distance and angles will vary throughout the turn. But the only way to pressure the rear ski through the ball of your foot is to center your weight over the ball of that foot. So like tele.skier says, rather than thinking about raising your heel up think more about stacking the forces directly on top of the ball of the rear foot. In other words, the transition is more like pedaling a bike backwards than pulling up on your heel. If you have access to an eliptical trainer, try running backwards on it. That's the movement you want.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by tele.skier View Post
            a tighter, weighted back foot,...... and after they experience that, it's all about practice time until they develop their NTN technique more. (and of course either like it more, or not)

            One of the feelings that is generated from the hips forward, stacked position is the "drive the cuff" feeling, where once you get some feeling for the taller stance technique, it feels like you get the most power by driving the cuff of the boot down over the ball of your foot with your shin,.... hence the term, "drive the cuff"....
            Same question to you, tele.skier: how far apart are your feet in this stance? Thanks for the explanation. It's starting to sink in.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Tele 'til You're Smelly View Post
              I know tele.skier and I differ on this but- NTN feels very similar to me as any other active binding (had O1s before NTN, and HH 5 before that). I made no technique adjustments.
              Well there are a lot of people who can't ski neutral bindings because their technique incorporates the force that a binding with greater leverage delivers to the ski tip. That doesn't mean that YOUR technique is based on that leverage. A skier can still ski a HH on 5 and have good technique where they are flexing the ski from the center of the ski, rather than going "knee to ski" and cranking the binding over the steer the ski with tip pressure generated by the binding....

              We all have some binding generated leverage in our modern bindings... I think that Dick hall's first movie had a lesson segment (on leathers and pins) and the skier was told to assume the telemark position and wait for the turn.... Now that guy's gear had no real leverage, and all he could do is position his skis and wait for the turn to happen. NTN does generate some binding leverage, but not on the same scale as a HH on 5 with a lot of preload.

              Of course NTN has some binding generated leverage. My comments relating to skiers who like HH's on 5 to chose a binding like the Outlaw and not a Rottefella freeride, is based on how bindings with similar mechanical designs would feel similarly and require less technique adjustment from the skier who switches from 75 to NTN.

              In the past,... people have argued, "why should I have to change my technique?", and the answer is simple. Because maybe your technique only works for bindings that are very active,... but that's not always the case either as in your case TTYS. Your technique works with everything you've skied, and there could be a few reasons for that. Maybe you have red powertubes set at 5 on NTN.... Maybe your technique is just strong with or without binding leverage. It's hard for me to say without having seen you ski during both your periods using each binding.




              Originally posted by hafjell View Post
              Same question to you, tele.skier: how far apart are your feet in this stance? Thanks for the explanation. It's starting to sink in.
              Well, The reason I told you just to drive your hips forward and forget about where your feet are is because once your spine is verticle, your back foot can't be hanging back. It will automatically be weighted... regardless of where it naturally falls.


              IF>....... you lean your head forward from the hip, then your spine will not be verticle. Your head and your back foot will act like a see saw to balance each other.... Meaning,..Your forward lean will unweight your back foot (sounds crazy doesn't it?)

              You don't need to be on skis to feel it. stand on one foot and lean your head forward and watch your back foot move backward and become unweighted so it can counterweight your forward lean...

              I see guys all the time skiing tele with different amounts of space between their feet. So long as their head, spine, and hips are in line, they are errect and they are weighting both feet....

              *I'm talking about driving your hips forward here, not the angluating to either side which you still must do to balance against the force of the turn...

              All I am trying to do is trick you into feeling what a weighted back foot will feel like, by making you exaggerate driving your hips forward which will tighten up your stance and weight your back foot... From there, you will make the adjustments you need or switch back to a binding that your existing technique already works with well.
              Last edited by tele.skier; 16 March 2015, 03:49 PM.
              the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

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              • #67
                Originally posted by cesare View Post
                think more about stacking the forces directly on top of the ball of the rear foot. In other words, the transition is more like pedaling a bike backwards than pulling up on your heel. If you have access to an eliptical trainer, try running backwards on it. That's the movement you want.
                This is helpful although it raises further questions. I'm struggling with the transitions. Whereas I used to "pedal forwards" now I have to change stance AND transition. Ok, thanks, C.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by tele.skier View Post
                  Well there are a lot of people who can't ski neutral bindings because their technique incorporates the force that a binding with greater leverage delivers to the ski tip.


                  I see guys all the time skiing tele with different amounts of space between their feet. So long as their head, spine, and hips are in line, they are errect and they are weighting both feet...
                  So you mean both 75 and NTN to this last quote?

                  I guess what's frustrating for me is that I ski a very neutral binding well. When I switched from all leather, no buckle boots to T2s the transition and improvement was instantaneous. Now, I'm up against a binding that requires a lot more work initially. I'm committed though. Thanks for all your help.

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                  • #69
                    My own observations have been consistent with TTYS's experience. Those who ski HH #4 or 5 made the NTN transition quickly. Tele.skier's description of mechanics sounds right, and the adjustment just seems quicker for those coming from an active binding, for whatever reason. Course, my data set is about 5 skiers. And, activity seems to be a different concept with NTN bindings, almost useless.

                    Personally, I think transitioning from leathers to plastics is going to be smoother than going say from HH #3 to 5, or HH # 3 to NTN, though I do recall a few threads from ttips lore discussing why they, and how not to, suck when they moved into stiffer boots.

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                    • #70
                      You are probably used to a two stage transition where first you stride forward and then you change edges. This is very slow and results in you not getting on your new edges until the turn is almost finished, virtually guaranteeing you will be skidding sideways to get your speed under control and set up for your next transition.

                      The lead change is not the turn. THE EDGE CHANGE IS THE TURN. This is why the monomark is such a useful drill. It teaches you to change edges independent of the lead change. Once you can change edges without changing leads with either foot in front, then you can smooth out your transitions. The edge change does not HAVE TO be before the lead change. But if you can execute the edge change first so that it may or may not happen at the same time as the lead change, you will cure the two step and make your transitions rapidly and early. Right now I would wager you can do the lead change first but not the opposite. Show video and prove me wrong. ;-)
                      Last edited by cesare; 16 March 2015, 07:53 PM.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by cesare View Post
                        You are probably used to a two stage transition where first you stride forward and then you change edges. This is very slow and results in you not getting on your new edges until the turn is almost finished, virtually guaranteeing you will be skidding sideways to get your speed under control and set up for your next transition.

                        The lead change is not the turn. THE EDGE CHANGE IS THE TURN. This is why the monomark is such a useful drill. It teaches you to change edges independent of the lead change. Once you can change edges without changing leads with either foot in front, then you can smooth out your transitions. The edge change does not HAVE TO be before the lead change. But if you can execute the edge change first so that it may or may not happen at the same time as the lead change, you will cure the two step and make your transitions rapidly and early. Right now I would wager you can do the lead change first but not the opposite. Show video and prove me wrong. ;-)
                        Spot on. Will work on this, this morning. Thanks.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          The unfortunate thing about making a technique adjustment from advise on the internet is that you are asking questions that have broad answers, when you may have a specific issue which you need to address that could be holding you back. So regardless of all the things pointed out to do correctly, the one thing you have wrong will determin the limit of your progress until you address it...

                          Also, having excellent technique is a progression. You can't just flip a switch and go from 0 - 100 instantly. At every level of advancement, the next difficult element will present the next challenge, whether it's adding steepness, deepness, or tight bumps. At each of these you will find a plateau to challenge your technique where what worked before on the groomer, doesn't get the job done well enough to maintain your chosen line at the next challenge. Each time you add a new element of complexity to the terrain the adjustment you need to make could be to a different element in your technique...

                          ..... and with that being said, you might want to,.... WAIT FOR IT<>>>>> take a formal or informal lesson...
                          Last edited by tele.skier; 17 March 2015, 07:07 AM.
                          the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by tele.skier View Post
                            The way to power that underfoot center of effort is not to crank your boot forward, but to stand in a "stacked position" and draw your backfoot under your center of mass... so you are standing on the ski rather than cranking binding leverage into it. I tell people who try NTN to exaggerate their "hips forward" position so they will be in the stacked postion unable to drive their uphill ski backward into the poodle position. After a few turns chanting to themselves, "Hips forward" they feel how the turn works with a tighter, weighted back foot,......
                            Another way to put this is that NTN rewards good technique.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by cesare View Post
                              Been saying this for years... thanks for supporting bootfitters!

                              Had this happen again last weekend. I took a student out who was a high level XC instructor. Based on what she told me about her skate boot size I picked a shell size that I felt would work. She put it on and said it was too tight. I gave her a bigger pair, she said it was great! My comment was that I suspected she would float around in the bigger size. Some time later we came in for lunch. When we went back out she had the smaller pair on and was much happier.

                              As a caveat, since she skis a lot she understands the penalties for boots that are too big. Most folk will take a long time to realize the bigger boot is limiting their performance.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by tele.skier View Post
                                Also, having excellent technique is a progression. You can't just flip a switch and go from 0 - 100 instantly.
                                I realized this while skiing this afternoon. I don't need to be instantly where I was with 75mm. I just want assurance I can get there. Today felt much better. Trying for the stack was very helpful. Skied much steeper terrain at higher speeds more squarely to the fall line. It will come. Now to decide on skis.

                                Also, the bindings felt like they had more give today, a plus.

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