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Transition from Duckbill to NTN help.

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  • #16
    I've had all three Scarpa NTN boots and I think the Tx is the nicest and most versatile. It's sole flex is about the same as the Tx pro and the cuff seems to me to feel about the same as the Tx Pro and just a little less stiff than Tx Comp and you don't have to deal with that stupid second buckle on the cuff of the Pro or the Comp. They remind me of the old black and silver T1s with a bit softer sole flex but that's not an issue with NTN IMO. Others will likely disagree. I mostly like to ski soft snow, powder or corn, when I tele now so I don't want or need a super stiff flexing boot.

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    • #17
      If you look at performance versus weight and tour ability I think the TX boot is the most versatile but given what the OP posted I would recommend the TX Pro. Going from a T-Race to a TX is going to be noticeable but NTN bindings are a far cry from Targas

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      • #18
        Originally posted by James View Post
        Going from a T-Race to a TX is going to be noticeable but NTN bindings are a far cry from Targas
        Thanks, James. Could you clarify the differences? I think I understand but want to make sure.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by James View Post
          If you look at performance versus weight and tour ability I think the TX boot is the most versatile but given what the OP posted I would recommend the TX Pro. Going from a T-Race to a TX is going to be noticeable but NTN bindings are a far cry from Targas
          I switched directly from a T Race with O1s to NTN with Tx Pro and Freerides and I thought it was stiffer with the NTN combo. I'm not even sure the Tx is even softer than the Tx Pro in the sole. Interestingly, the Tx, Tx Pro and Comp all have the same cuff height. If you have a well broken in T Race with Targas a Tx with Freerides, or preferably Freedoms, will feel very similar and the transition will be easy.

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          • #20
            With NTN it is hard to compare since the binding is so unique in how it attaches to the boot and skis. Since you are skiing Targas this is especially true. Targas are a very neutral binding and are very easy to tippy toe in. While NTN is not really neutral or active like a 75 mm binding it is much harder to flex as you have noticed and almost impossible to tippy toe in. So with NTN you could use a lighter boot and get similar performance especially on hard snow.

            I have skied every boot Scarpa has made except the T-4. Before NTN I skied T-Race with Hammerheads #4 at the resort and Switchback X-2 or AXL #2 with T-1 in the BC. My Favorite boot was the T-Race because it had the perfect stiffness for resort and was taller with a more narrow upper. I am 6" 3" and 190 with very long runner legs. I would say the closest match to the T-Race is the EVO and the TX Comp is the closest match to the T-1. Some say the T2 ECO is like the TX Pro but I never liked the T-2 series boots and really like the TX Pro. I really like the TX but it is very light and I think it is quite a bit softer then Aaron. I only use it for spring mountaineering with some really light skis and a TTS set up. There is a video of me demoing the TX and the TTS set up a couple years ago here. https://vimeo.com/53131844 Even with those crap skis I felt the system skied really, really well.

            How much BC skiing do you do? Keep in mind the TX Comp weighs exactly the same as the TX Pro. If I could only keep one boot it would probably be the Comp but I probably ski 75% resort these days and when I tour it is usually for turns.
            Last edited by James; 3 February 2015, 02:49 PM.

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            • #21
              I have both tx and tx pros. I got my tx's first and skied them as my touring boots for the season last year, while a friend of mine got the tx pros. His boots have a burly cuff with 2 buckles and my assumption was that I was probably skiing a much less powerful boot than he was in my tx's....

              Early this season I picked up a pair of tx pros. I've worn them a bunch of times. For all their greater cuff stiffness, their bellows flex (and aaron is going to say sole flex meaning the same thing) is suprisingly similar to the tx's...

              To me, the tx is a more well designed boot, meaning the cuff and bellows flex are well matched to each other.

              The tx pro has a stiffer cuff, but doesn't feel as powerful a boot as it should feel for all that cuff stiffness because the bellows flex seems too soft by comparison.... (to me)

              I've never skied the tx comp, but maybe someone will chime in with a comparison to either of the boots I've discribed
              the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

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              • #22
                Originally posted by airinwrite View Post
                Interestingly, the Tx, Tx Pro and Comp all have the same cuff height.
                I was surprised by this but you are correct. The EVO towers over all of them and weighs a whole lot more.

                I don't think there is a huge difference between the Pro and the Comp but the Comp feels a little more balanced and has no down side in weight. Suprisingly I am the smallest person in this recent discussion FWIW.

                The one problem I have is I have never skied my TX boots with an NTN bidning. Just the TTS. I need to try them out some time to really get a feel.
                Last edited by James; 3 February 2015, 02:46 PM.

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                • #23
                  Yeah, standing with a Tx on one foot and the Comp on the other I can't tell much difference in cuff stiffness. It's honestly not much IMO. The sole flexes noticeably stiffer with the Comp over the Tx and Tx Pro which again IMO are about the same. I never understood the change to two cuff buckles on the T1 and T Race, it add nothing IMO and I was disappointed that the Pro and Comp both came with two cuff buckles. My alpine freeride boots, Salomon Quest 120, only have one cuff buckle.

                  The thing about NTN is that it really is neutral, the pivot is just under the toes on the boot. NTN can be set up stiff and has great lateral stiffness by nature but it will never be very active. That's why I like it, as far as active bindings go it's closer to 3 pins or a Targa but with that nice underfoot flex. I can switch back and forth between pins/T3 on lighter xcd type skis and NTN with very little change in technique, but with a lot more power.

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                  • #24
                    Two questions . . . my understanding is that you're describing the "activity" of Freedom, not the Freeride (I put that in quotes b/c James' note that the activity of 75mm doesn't exactly translate to activity of NTN makes sense to me)? And, do the Comps and Pros have a more forward lean than the Tx's? That was my impression from trying on the Pros in someone's living room.

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                    • #25
                      The Freedom seems a bit more "active" than the Freeride but I think that is due to the obvious ramp on the Freedom and that makes the springs engage earlier than with the Freeride. Yes, the "activity" of NTN bindings doesn't translate because the pivot where the flex plate/cable/spring assembly it very near the front of the boot. That's why I say NTN is neutral when compared to 75mm offerings.

                      Having skied all three, I would say the forward lean settings on the Tx and Tx Pro are the same or very similar. The Comps I have have adjustable forward lean.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by airinwrite View Post
                        I switched directly from a T Race with O1s to NTN with Tx Pro and Freerides and I thought it was stiffer with the NTN combo. I'm not even sure the Tx is even softer than the Tx Pro in the sole. Interestingly, the Tx, Tx Pro and Comp all have the same cuff height. If you have a well broken in T Race with Targas a Tx with Freerides, or preferably Freedoms, will feel very similar and the transition will be easy.
                        Tx with Freedoms sounds like the ticket. I just wish I could demo. I haven't started exploring skis for this combo. Any thoughts? They will spend a fair amount of time in the backcountry, but I prefer downhill performance to uphill speed. (I know the two are linked, ie if you're lighter on the ascent you should have more gas in the tank for the descent; I just don't want a wimpy ski for the downhill. I'm less concerned with multiple laps/day and more concerned with one good descent. I guess that's what having your first child in your mid-40's will do.)

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                        • #27
                          The only other consideration I'll throw out is that 22D's Outlaw is about to be sent around for beta testing. In light of the rate at which you buy gear and your recent entry into fatherhood (congratulations, by the way), you might wait a tad longer and see how that fares.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dschane View Post
                            The only other consideration I'll throw out is that 22D's Outlaw is about to be sent around for beta testing. In light of the rate at which you buy gear and your recent entry into fatherhood (congratulations, by the way), you might wait a tad longer and see how that fares.
                            Ha! I've been worried about explaining the "need" for a new setup to the wife and then realized I've had two pairs of boots for the last 19 years. God bless Scarpa's durability, IME. You think the Outlaws will be an improvement on the Freedoms?

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                            • #29
                              My current and only NTN set up is Freedoms on Fischer Watea 96, now the Ranger 96 Ti. These skis are very nice in a variety of conditions, have great edge hold compared to the obese offerings a lot of folks are skiing these days and with a modest early rise tip they are fun in powder and surprisingly damp in crud and challenging snow. Pretty light for a ski that is this stiff and damp. I like the flat tails.

                              I've come to the conclusion that I don't care to tele on skis that are over 100 mm underfoot and/or have tail rocker/early rise. Yes it's nice in pow to have a fatter ski but most of the time your skiing less than perfect pow and some sort of variable snow and a ski that is 90-100 mm under foot is way more manageable and versatile.

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                              • #30
                                If I could only have one ski ( I have several) I would keep my Liberty Helix or find another ski like them. They are 105 under foot have a very small amount of rocker and a twin tip tail. They are on the lighter side but not AT uphill light and are mid stiff with a 22 meter or so radius. I ski in Colorado for the East I might size down 5- 10 mm.

                                As far as the Outlaws no one will know but if history is any guide 22 Designs is not going to put out a product that breaks near as much as the Freerides and if they do they will fix the problem immediately. I sent my 6th pair of Freerides in a few weeks ago and they broke the same way as the first ones I sent back 4 years ago.
                                Last edited by James; 3 February 2015, 08:31 PM.

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