Another Tele mounting question

[Gary at Tahoe]

Hey all,

I just bought a pair of 188 Salomon Q98 skis and BD 01 bindings for my Resort/Sidecountry and firm BC Tele set up.

Anyone mounted these skis (or the Q105's) tele? Little tip rocker with a kicked up tail.


PSA: Reno/Tahoe skiers....RMS is having their going out business sale, 50% or more off (Open 10-6 this Sunday only).

[Dostie]

Gary,

Just looking at the rocker profile you're probably safe to match the tele boot center at the alpine boot center mark. I have not skied these skis tele, so I won't guarantee that recommendation, but I've found alpine center tends to work pretty well for tele boot center (1/2Xheel-to-pins-length, measured from heel) on skis with moderate rocker. The more rocker there is at the tip, the more I've found the need to shift back a bit.

For grins, determine the widest point of edge contact in the front, and rear, then mark the mid-point between 'em. Compare to the recommended alpine boot center. If it's off by a lot, shift towards what that pseudo-chord center point is. With any luck, someone has blazed this exact trail before and will chime in.

[3PinGrin]

Gary,

Just looking at the rocker profile you're probably safe to match the tele boot center at the alpine boot center mark.

And done, this is the way of the samurai now, embrace and ask not further......

[dschane]

Yeah, I agree, I'd go with the alpine line or up to 2 cm behind. There's so much personal preference and voodoo in choosing a mount location, even if you found someone who mounted these specific skis, not sure how much help that would be.

[Gary at Tahoe]

Yeah, thought I would throw the question out there. I tend to mount 1-2 cm behind the alpine mark, so that plus a little Voodoo.

Thanks

[tele.skier]

Yeah, thought I would throw the question out there. I tend to mount 1-2 cm behind the alpine mark, so that plus a little Voodoo.

Thanks

I am almost always behind the alpine mark. On one pair of skis I owned, I remounted 3 times and had 3 mount position adjustability on each mount (bishop bombers) Initially, I followed the alpine boot center mount position recommendation, but I was leaning back heavily on my boot cuffs to keep from face planting.... (Leaning backward to keep from going over the tips is a sure sign that you are mounted too far forward)

I moved the bindings back to -2 and the furthest rear mount position on the bomber's 3 position adjustment was pretty good, the middle position had me leaning backward ever so slightly, and the forward position had me leaning back significantly. I knew that the middle mounted position was slightly forward, so I remounted the bindings again. This time I used the rear postion from mount #2 as the forward position on the new mount, knowing that the forward position was now a notch behind "too far forward". I tried the middle bomber mount position and it was fine. I was never leaning backward on my boot cuffs to keep from face planting in that position. I was either standing neutrally or driving the cuff to pressure the ski.

I ended up at -4mm behind BAL, which sounds rediculous, but I checked with a guy who also skis the same skis and he was at -2.5mm. I am quite a bit bigger than he is so I figured it made sense and the BAL was a long way off for a tele mount.

...... so,.... Who fukin' cares?... WTF am I blathering about this time????...

It's simple,.... the first mount is always a guess based on BAL data. The test of whether it's a optimum mount position is related to how a skier compensates his balance position for that mount location. If you have to lean back on the boot cuffs to keep from face planting, then you should remount the binding further back on the ski.

But,....Being mounted too far back has no obvious effect like making you lean backward on your cuffs to stay balanced. Being too far back only makes your skis respond slower and gives you less leverage on the tip pressure and less control. It's much harder to know if you can move your mount forward to have a better performing mount location...

MY manifesto says that: You want to be as far forward mounted as possible, without ever having to lean backward on the cuffs of your boots to stay balanced. That gives you a good balance point where you go from a neutral stance to an aggressive stance quickly, and the greatest possible control of the ski while in a well balanced postion.

Personally, I have tried BAL on a lot of skis and I am always at least -1 behind that mark. I attribute that to my own personal voodoo, whether it's my height/weight or my technique, I can't really know... Right now, I have 9 skis mounted... that's about 2 or 3 more than the average year's quiver..

I realize that my method doesn't give a skier the best location before he mounts his bindings... but that's part of my theory. There's some personal voodoo involved in mounting, so the first mount is always a "best guess".... HTH..

[cesare]

^^^ eggzakly^^^

[airinwrite]

^^^^That's really confusing. tele-skier's post not cesare's

Leaning back on the cuffs has more to do with having too much delta in the boot binding combo than binding position on the ski. This is a common problem for teleskiers because of the ramp built into both boots and bindings. This is the reason that a lot of tele skiers like the upright lock position on their boots or ski unlocked. The only bindings that give a nice neutral position are the NTN Freedom and TTS if set up to have a lower heel.

I think the best advice you can give anyone for mounting a telebinding is to put it so boot center is over mark and then give it some time to feel comfortable. It seems a lot of folks mount their bindings take a few runs and decide it's not optimal and proceed to turn their skis into Swiss cheese. Of course this is only relevant if the manufacturer has the spot optimized.

I have a friend that has the same topo Praxic BCs as me, he has his mounted with Dynafits and mine have Freedoms on them. We both thought the tail was whimpy and wouldn't really hold well when pushed. We both had them mounted boot center on the mark. I moved forward about 3cm based on some research on TGR and looking at the ski. It looked really far back. Now they are a way more responsive and stable ski. It seems that the recommended mark has now been changed on current versions of the BC.

All the other mounts I've done in the past 7 seasons since switching to boot center over mark have been great and everyone who I've mounted bindings for this way really like it too.

[Paul Lutes]

Let me summarize …… no, that will take too long, let me consolidate: Unless there's significant evidence to the contrary, initially mount boot center to ski mark, ski at least 5 days under variable conditions, adjust if needed. I can't remember the last time I had to remount front/backwards, but that is probably due to my hard snow preference. I wouldn't be too quick to move back from the ski mark when dealing with TRO; remember, as soon as you engage your edge more and more of that tip rocker starts ingaging, so if you start back from the ski mark, you will lose pressure on the tips.

[tele.skier]

^^^^That's really confusing. tele-skier's post not cesare's

Leaning back on the cuffs has more to do with having too much delta in the boot binding combo than binding position on the ski. This is a common problem for teleskiers because of the ramp built into both boots and bindings. This is the reason that a lot of tele skiers like the upright lock position on their boots or ski (walk/ski lever) unlocked. The only bindings that give a nice neutral position are the NTN Freedom and TTS if set up to have a lower heel.

The last time I posted this you disagreed, but you didn't mention that the change in boot cuff angle and the boot delta are integrally related... This time, you seem to understand that the combination of the two are what determin the skier's center of mass relative to his center of balance... IF I explain it here a few more times, I expect by then, you will just agree with me... (yeah, that's a joke)

.....So, lets take your statement:

Leaning back on the cuffs has more to do with having too much delta in the boot binding combo than binding position on the ski.

If you mounted your bindings +8 with a neutral delta, do you think you would face plant?....

Mount location determins how pressure is distributed on the ski. If you mount too far forward, then leaning back changes the pressure distribution so the skier will slide rather than rotate (face plant) There are other things you can do too... like lower your center to change the angle of rotation, but that requires a much less efficient stance....

I like a little boot delta, but I also like a more verticle cuff lock angle.... As I have said many times, the critical angle is "shin angle", which is determined by the combination of boot delta, and cuff lock angle together... if you change either one of these components, then you change the skier's shin angle.

Here's the picture I have posted numerous times too.... the shin angle determins the skier's mass centering.... unless your knees are somehow able to bend backwards....



Your hip center can't be behind your balance point or you are driving pressure to the tails of your skis. The delta/cuff angle relationship determins where your hip center is.

IF your binding mount point is too far forward, your ski will want to induce rotation to you rather than slide. this has to do mostly with the distribution of pressure due to your chosen mounting point for the binding...

Ultimately, these different things, (mount point, delta, cuff angle, mass center location, etc) all determin the best location for mounting and give a workable balance of tip and tail weighting, but they are variables, some of which are slightly different from one skier to another. That's why I think there is a little variation from one skier to another..

... My point to you, is that you realize that leaning back means a skier is mounted to far forward, and when a skier leans back, he is attempting to change the distribution of how his skis are weighted...

I don't know what else to tell you... I stand by my previous statement.

(to paul: yes, hard snow changes the physics of a workable mounting location significantly)

[airinwrite]

Your diagram assumes your feet are flat. Most tele boots have an excessively high heels and the binding heel is also high which creates excessive Delta. THAT is why you hear tele skiers talking about 'face planting' and 'going over the bars' and feeling like they're falling forward.

Yes, having the binding mounted ridiculously far forward would feel like you're going to face plant. In the range that most people mount a binding, usually around 3 cm +/- or less it is not a contributing factor in my experience. I ski on very short(145 cm) Altai Hoks and the bindings are very close to the front of the ski. Even in deep powder I don't feel like I'm going to face plant, because I have the toe shimmed slightly and the heel flat on the ski, creating almost neutral delta. If you believe 'shin angle' is the most critical component here, you don't understand what is going on. It starts with the feet and only then can 'shin angle' be determined. I say 'shin angle' in quotes because what you are talking about is dorisflexion and it's a dynamic thing not a static angle.

[tele.skier]

Your diagram assumes your feet are flat.

No it doesn't assume any such thing. I've said it a few times.. "foot delta" is one of the two components that contribute to the more critical element which is shin angle. It doesn't matter how you mix the two components to have your shin angle optimized so that at full extension you are balanced over your feet in the various positions of extension. (row 1)

Delta angle is adjustable. Since I like the feel of a less flexed ankle, I lock my cuffs in the more upright postion to achieve the optimum "shin angle". IF I didn't employ a higher delta angle with an upright locked cuff, then my shin angle would be too verticle and I would look like row 2 of the diagram and my hips would be behind my balance center, and I would be leaning on the rear of my boot cuffs.

This means that I am leveraging pressure on the tail of my skis. I supose you could be mounted more forward if you set up your shin angle that way, but you would have to overcome your backward leaning to drive pressure into the tips of your skis... IMO, the best way to be standing is either neutrally at nearly full extension, riding your skis with equal pressure on your tips and tails, OR standing aggressively driving pressure into the tounge of your boots to flex your skis.

Most tele boots have an excessively high heels and the binding heel is also high which creates excessive Delta. THAT is why you hear tele skiers talking about 'face planting' and 'going over the bars' and feeling like they're falling forward.

IF that was true Aaron you could mount at + 8 with your negative delta and never go over the bars... give it a try and let me know how that turns out..

Yes, having the binding mounted ridiculously far forward would feel like you're going to face plant. In the range that most people mount a binding, usually around 3 cm +/- or less it is not a contributing factor in my experience. I ski on very short(145 cm) Altai Hoks and the bindings are very close to the front of the ski. Even in deep powder I don't feel like I'm going to face plant, because I have the toe shimmed slightly and the heel flat on the ski, creating almost neutral delta. If you believe 'shin angle' is the most critical component here, you don't understand what is going on. It starts with the feet and only then can 'shin angle' be determined. I say 'shin angle' in quotes because what you are talking about is dorisflexion and it's a dynamic thing not a static angle.

Going over the handlebars is a thing that is relative to a ski's friction coefficient. I would bet that on your hoks you don't develope a lot of inertia like skiing on an alpine ski, so the frictional coefficiency changes don't have as drastic an effect on rotation imparted to you as it changes as it does to the skier skiing.

I don't know if you ski with your cuffs locked in the forward position or not, but if you do, try them locked in the more upright position (with the same delta you have now of course) and tell me that it feels the same (because it should if the only thing that matters is your boot delta)

... I can leave it at that.. I realize probably nobody else cares..

[airinwrite]

No it doesn't assume any such thing. I've said it a few times.. "foot delta" is one of the two components that contribute to the more critical element which is shin angle. It doesn't matter how you mix the two components to have your shin angle optimized so that at full extension you are balanced over your feet in the various positions of extension. (row 1)

Delta angle is adjustable. Since I like the feel of a less flexed ankle, I lock my cuffs in the more upright postion to achieve the optimum "shin angle". IF I didn't employ a higher delta angle with an upright locked cuff, then my shin angle would be too verticle and I would look like row 2 of the diagram and my hips would be behind my balance center, and I would be leaning on the rear of my boot cuffs.

This means that I am leveraging pressure on the tail of my skis. I supose you could be mounted more forward if you set up your shin angle that way, but you would have to overcome your backward leaning to drive pressure into the tips of your skis... IMO, the best way to be standing is either neutrally at nearly full extension, riding your skis with equal pressure on your tips and tails, OR standing aggressively driving pressure into the tounge of your boots to flex your skis.






IF that was true Aaron you could mount at + 8 with your negative delta and never go over the bars... give it a try and let me know how that turns out..



Going over the handlebars is a thing that is relative to a ski's friction coefficient. I would bet that on your hoks you don't develope a lot of inertia like skiing on an alpine ski, so the frictional coefficiency changes don't have as drastic an effect on rotation imparted to you as it changes as it does to the skier skiing.

I don't know if you ski with your cuffs locked in the forward position or not, but if you do, try them locked in the more upright position (with the same delta you have now of course) and tell me that it feels the same (because it should if the only thing that matters is your boot delta)

... I can leave it at that.. I realize probably nobody else cares..

I would say that the reason you like a less dorsiflexed boot cuff is that you've become accustomed to a boot/binding combo that has too much delta, you're putting the cart before the horse. I used to like the same thing until I tried Freedoms and started using Dynafits with a toe shim and neutral alpine bindings like Solly STH#. Now I like a much more forward leaning cuff and can stand tall more comfortably and take advantage of a greater range of motion and increased dorsiflexion. There is a reason that most folks like a more neutral delta when they try it, so many people put shims under their dynafit toes and racers shim their binding toes too. More and more bindings are being made with a more neutral(flatter) position for the foot. It really is optimal for freeriding and it's too bad the only tele binding that comes that way off the shelf is the Freedom.

I ski with my cuff on Tx Comps adjusted to a pretty forward lean, it does feel different when upright and I never said dorsiflexion didn't matter only that your boot/binding delta is what affects dorsiflexion, not the other way around. Your feet and their position is the basis for your skiing position.

The change in friction with the Hoks is far greater than with an alpine ski. Once you overcome the friction from the skin they glide very well and you can move remarkably fast, just like a grip waxed ski.

Some people, maybe you too, might be better served and prefer a more open ankle flexion and a steep delta but that vast majority of skiers will be better served by decreasing delta and taking advantage of increased dorsiflexion and range of motion. It's really too bad that AT and tele boots have a locked cuff mode, people would be better served by a cuff that is adjustable and has blocking extension and allows free flex to the front. A lot of alpine freeride boots are like this and I like them. It's the reason I keep the cuff buckles somewhat loose on my Tx Comps with the cuffs locked.

[Gary at Tahoe]

Wow...didn't think my question would start this storm. Maybe we should get into the wayback machine of TTips and discuss our favorite Blue bindings.

[airinwrite]

Wow...didn't think my question would start this storm. Maybe we should get into the wayback machine of TTips and discuss our favorite Blue bindings.

Put all the pedantic rambling aside and the best advice is "boot center over mark".