F1/F3s - Haven't Even Skied Them and I Already Want to Mod

[Mattaboy]

Folks, I finally have myself some F3's, and what a journey it's been. The only size 30's I could find on the entire planet earth were in Germany, and I was certainly not gonna let some silly language barrier stop me!
So here we are: A new German phone #, a shipGerman account, and one birthday later, and I have my boots! They're lighter than my XP's, the cuff feels strong enough to ski well, and I'm pumped!


Excitement aside, carpet testing has made me think of a few things:
Bellows
Range of Motion
Hardware

The bellows are soft. They're super soft. They're beyond clapped out. They might as well just be duct tape. These bellows are non-existent compared to my Crispi XPs. Yes, the F3 is worth the tradeoff for the weight and the tech toe on its own, but I gotta ask: does anyone do anything to stiffen these up? Maybe shove some rubber between the bellows? Or do folks just adjust their technique? I feel like the weak bellows makes a strong case for NTN over TTS, but I'm curious what people do with the binding here as well.

ROM
It's better than any proper tele boot I know of, but does leave something to be desired when compared to boots like the Transalp Pro.
As far as I can tell, the rearword ROM is limited by the "shelf" around the heel that holds the rear pin. Has anyone tried removing this material?

Hardware/fit
I'm planning on replacing pretty much all of the hardware with better stuff. We have excellent options on current AT boots and that's an opportunity!
Definitely using something like the upper cuff sliding buckle from the Transalp series, but maybe parts from my XP as well for a better lower fit. But let's talk about that fit. Only one buckle for the whole lower? That's gotta be a tough time for a fit. Do people find any issues with just one buckle for the lower, and if so, how do they get around it?

Any and all thoughts on the F3 welcome here. Ultimately I'll probably make some minor mods, but I'm interested in what problems people have found and addressed in the F1/F3 series before I've put it under the knife.

[jtb]

I've never skied Crispi's, but I find the F3 to have a similar feel to T2's, and similar in bellows stiffness to TXP's. TXP's have more power than T2/F3 because of the bigger cuff, but I don't notice a big difference in the bellows. My feet are smaller than yours (26.5), so you might have more binding stiffness and activity to resist the extra leverage of your foot, which crushes the bellows faster. But I don't think any Scarpa boot other than a TX Comp will help with that.

Agreed that ROM and hardware are reflective of a 15 year old design. If you can improve ROM, post your mods! I'd be interested.

[Turnfarmer]

Replacing the walk mech with a modern one really frees up the walk mode. I also think it improves the ROM some. You can buy Atomic levers from phantom snow for $20ish as they replace them with a spring lever system on their hardboot splitboard boots. You will have to figure out a way to mount them though. I’m in the middle of this project and will likely mount a flat aluminum bar into the holes left in the boot and then drill the bar with the hole pattern of the Atomic lever.

As far as increasing rom, I think the best way would be to trim the bottom of the cuff to allow more rearward movement. This would be a lot easier if the cuff rivets were replaced with pivot bolts but I don’t know which ones will fit. Pretty sure Scarpa sell them as replacement parts. If you knew the came from a certain 75mm boot, cheap ones can be found all over. i got a pair of T2 echos for 20 bucks at a swap!

Trimming the cuff could probably be done with it on the boot if you are very careful.

[Turnfarmer]

If you want more forward rom, you can convert it to a removable tongue system by trimming the plastic retainer on the boot to be thinner so the tongue removes easily. Dremel makes a kit that has a plastic cutoff wheel that works well well for this and would also work well for trimming the cuff. Keep the rpms as low as possible as pebax gets really gooey if it melts rather than cuts.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Dremel-EZ728-01-11-PC-EZ-Lock-Cutting-Rotary-Accessories-Micro-Kit-EZ728/317717194#overlay

[jasonq]

In a thread somewhere in the last 5 years, BTS showed a pick of the mod to increase rear ROM by trimming the cuff. I think he said it worked, but didn't really make a noticeable difference, a few degrees. But for him a noticeable difference would have been turning F3 ROM into F1 ROM. IMO, to get a really noticeable improvement, you would need to do some major surgery. see a couple paragraphs down.

For hacking, i recommend finding the same size T2X (or Eco, but i can't confirm that as i don't have one). The F3 and T2X are basically the same boot with different toes. Basically, anyway. Same cuff and tongue molds, but may be different stiffnesses. Scaffo is very similar, but appears to be shared with the F1 (see bit about that below), and the major difference relative to the T2X scaffo is the walk mech pin is lower, leading the walk mech bar to be longer than the T2X version, and the resulting ROM slightly larger. So, if you are going to hack on a cuff/walk mech, you can buy a cheap T2X, remove cuff, remove walk mech, and you have a throw away part. I recently did this myself, but in my case, the walk mech was worn and loose, and the cuff rivets were worn and loose, so i replaced the rivets and used an old T2X cuff, removed the walk mech, and replaced the walk mech with a fixed aluminum bar since i only use that boot on lifts. I made the new rivets myself using a combo the parts/materials off amazon and 3d printed bits.

now that you have a cheap way to get more cuffs, if you really want more ROM, and don't want to wreck the only pair of MP30 F3's in the world, you need to modify the cuff, not scaffo. So, you will need to cut away cuff until it gives you the ROM you want. then figure out how to make a walk mech for what is left. All you have to loose is T2X cuffs...

now to the bit about the F3 and F1 appearing to share the same scaffo. the F1 has no instep buckle, and instead positions the forefoot buckle closer to the instep. inside the F3 scaffo, are the recesses for the that hardware. if you are looking to add 2 buckles to the forefoot, you could add the second where the F1 buckle goes really easily. Personally, i would not bother as i have never found i needed two buckles on the lower (T1, T2X, TXP, F3 all have one + instep). F1 with just one and no instep is surprising pretty decent too. But if you were going to bother, i'd look at doing something more like the maelstrale, keep one buckle, but sort of a do a lacing arrangement.

[bobbytooslow]

F3 walk mech removal was discussed a bit here. Side by side photos, including the trimming required for max rearward ROM:



Max rearward ROM with stock walk mech:



Max rearward ROM with no walk mech:




I home-3DP'd a wedge with matching studs to make the Atomic mode lever sit properly, but I've yet to actually fasten it all together. Maybe when my current (stock) F3's give up the ghost, I'll be more motivated. Happy to share the model if anyone wants it.





A couple thoughts:

- I really made a mess of the F3 cuff while removing the walk mech. Those rivets are quite formidable. Don't do it unless you feel like you really really need to, and you're really good at that particular process.

- The stock F3 has pretty much become my resort daily driver. I really like the way it fits and skis. The stock buckles lock my scrawny foot in real nicely, so I've never contemplated swapping them out. I can deal with the poor ROM for any short traverses or whatever from the resort. I honestly wish I'd left my other pair as-is, because...

- The regular F1 (later bellow'd generations, anyway) skis almost as good. I'd say 90-95% of the downhill performance of the F3. And the tour mode conversion is already done for you (yes, you can eek out a few more degrees of rearward ROM by trimming some plastic, but stock is still lightyears ahead of, say, a TX Pro). So the F1 is my backcountry daily driver when I care about making good turns. (F1 Carbon when I'm on skinnier skis and/or just interested in the vert.)

- Don't listen to people who say the F1 isn't up to the task of driving a modern ski. Some folks have F1 Races, or crappy first-gen F1's with the confounding walk mech, but their experiences don't relate to the later regular F1's. I paired them with Ultravectors all winter, and they were tremendous.

- To summarize, I'd leave your F3's as-is, and use them like the T2 variant that they are: A capable resort boot and decent for non-epic tours. And then put your efforts toward finding a pair of F1's to use for touring. I'm all about DIY mods, but I've found that a two-boot quiver of the F3 & F1 (both with stock mech still in place) honestly covers most of the bases.

[fisheater]

Just curious, is it hard to find a tongue for an F-1? I don’t know if I will need one, but my F-1 Race might need a boost.
I have a set of Raichle Flexon tongues that could be trimmed to fit, and even slit to soften. So I am just asking.
Thanks

[bobbytooslow]

The F1 Race lacks the little attachment thingie at the bottom, so no tongue will just clip in. I have put T2 (I think) tongues on mine just held in place by the straps, but I can't say it was a positive experience.

To also answer another question further up, I had more success stiffening the boot by adding a sheet of carbon fiber under the liner. And while it did stiffen the flex, it was uncomfortable because I used a flat sheet. An actual carbon insert shaped to the contours of the foot would probably be better, though they're not cheap.

[jasonq]

A couple thoughts:

- I really made a mess of the F3 cuff while removing the walk mech. Those rivets are quite formidable. Don't do it unless you feel like you really really need to, and you're really good at that particular process.

- The stock F3 has pretty much become my resort daily driver. I really like the way it fits and skis. The stock buckles lock my scrawny foot in real nicely, so I've never contemplated swapping them out. I can deal with the poor ROM for any short traverses or whatever from the resort. I honestly wish I'd left my other pair as-is, because...

- The regular F1 (later bellow'd generations, anyway) skis almost as good. I'd say 90-95% of the downhill performance of the F3. And the tour mode conversion is already done for you (yes, you can eek out a few more degrees of rearward ROM by trimming some plastic, but stock is still lightyears ahead of, say, a TX Pro). So the F1 is my backcountry daily driver when I care about making good turns. (F1 Carbon when I'm on skinnier skis and/or just interested in the vert.)

- Don't listen to people who say the F1 isn't up to the task of driving a modern ski. Some folks have F1 Races, or crappy first-gen F1's with the confounding walk mech, but their experiences don't relate to the later regular F1's. I paired them with Ultravectors all winter, and they were tremendous.

- To summarize, I'd leave your F3's as-is, and use them like the T2 variant that they are: A capable resort boot and decent for non-epic tours. And then put your efforts toward finding a pair of F1's to use for touring. I'm all about DIY mods, but I've found that a two-boot quiver of the F3 & F1 (both with stock mech still in place) honestly covers most of the bases.

Much wisdom above.

the original bellowed F1gen2 with the pin in the scaffo and slot on the walk mech (like nearly all AT boots) is a really really good tele tour boot. In BC conditions, i'd have no issues with anything under 110mm waist, which is my widest. Sure it is no ice carving machine, but its more boot a T2X/Eco is. And those are more boot than people realize. its more boot than them because the scaffo non-bellows plastic seems stiffer and the 2 pin connection is a stiffer torsional connection than the duckbill.

F3 is a really great boot stock. every bit as good or better than a TX, or better, for TTS. IMO, its the best one boot quiver today. And the OG F1gen2 is really by far the best tour boot.

[Mattaboy]

To turn farmers point on the tongue , I found something similar by doing some carpet testing today. I found the tongue really limited forward ROM, and removing it made the liners the limitation - just like how it is on my AT boots! I’m about 200lbs so Idk if I like it without a tongue from a stiffness/downhill standpoint, but people get by with the f1 race, so maybe it’s not a big deal with good conditions?


That did get me thinking about ROM, so I looked at the geometry a bit. Scarpa boots tend to have a low pivot point, and that makes ROM tough without a long ski/walk mechanism.


I’m starting to think that the easiest way to improve it would be to use the upper from an AT boot without a tongue (current Backland, Transalp, many Dynafits, F1 LT, etc), but I dont have any numbers on it yet. I think using an F3 lower, sans tongue might leave something to be desired in terms of boot stiffness, but I just don’t have a good solution for that. The alternate is using a heavy NTN lower, and that defeats the purpose here. I want improved ROM AND weight. I can’t make a target weight of 1600g in a size 30 with an NTN boot without drilling holes, and that doesn’t seem wise.


So BTS, I think I see your logic here right here. Leave the F3 unmodded, and just use it as a better T2 sounds like a good move. Especially since I don’t have any backups.


It makes me wish I was cool enough to test gear for Scarpa and Voile. Having a prototype tele touring boot would be a real dream. Guess I gotta climb more mountains with the gear I have! Think the F3s are gonna go meet the presidential range!

[Mattaboy]

bobbytooslow, how did you attach those carbon sheets to the boot? I’m guessing it’s just glue.

If you were able to use them to stiffen the bellows flex, maybe that same process could stiffen a lower to make up for removing the tongue?

[bobbytooslow]

Nope, literally just took the liner out, plopped them in the shell, and put the liner back in. They definitely improved the flex, and definitely hurt my feet.

If you're going to do it, I would recommend something like this. Not cheap, $160 a pair. There are thinner ones out there, though I don't know how effective they'd be. 1-2mm seems to be in the right ballpark for thickness.

But, I'd wait until you've skied them at the resort a few days before coming to any conclusions about necessary modifications. Carpet testing is useful for bindings -- especially to see if they'll blow up -- but the forces flexing a boot are pretty different from those in a real turn on snow. You might find that they ski just fine.

[Charley White]

...And while it did stiffen the flex, it was uncomfortable because I used a flat sheet. An actual carbon insert shaped to the contours of the foot would probably be better, though they're not cheap.

Am trying to imagine why. If you insert a Bontex shim to take up space under the liner, they're just flat. The shell inner floor the liner sits on is just flat, no?

[bobbytooslow]

This is the boot board from the boots I used them in. It is sandwiched between the boot plastic and my liner. It has taken on this contoured shape because the shell has a contoured shape. Maybe this isn't the case for rigid alpine boots, but it seems to be the way it goes with the bellow'd Scarpa F- series boots.

[Turnfarmer]

I’m surprised the flat plates didn’t crack in the contoured F3 base. I use thes plates on a regular basis for my job and these provide the best performance/value -

https://www.acor.com/orthotic-inserts#

Thermoplastic composit foot plates are also available that can be thermoformed to different countours-

https://jmsplastics.com/product/nrg-plates/

https://jmsplastics.com/product/j-turf/

Bontex shims are very flexible compared to any of thes plates so they just bend to whatever count our the boot has.
Almost all AT/Alpine/Telemark boots have some type of contour.