"There's the Outlaw and there will be the Inlaw"

[Pherick]

Do tell?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCKHduO8Ftg&t=1950s

a no-tour Outlaw?

[bauerb]

outlaw skimo ?

[bobbytooslow]

From what I gather, 22D is working on an NTN binding -- toe cage, duckbutt connection -- similar to the Outlaw but without the tour pivot, colloquially called the "Inlaw." It will be a 100% inbounds-focused binding, as opposed to a jack of all trades. Removing the tour pivot will make it a lot simpler, and also allow for a more-refined brake system (possibly one that retracts laterally above the ski like alpine brakes?).

It sounds crazy to mess with the most popular NTN binding (Outlaw), and I have no idea if the plan is for it to eventually go away, but I understand and support the logic. Sell a 100% inbounds binding, and then the Lynx for days you want to tour. Inwild has been working on a non-touring version of the Meidjo as well. No idea about the landing date for either one.

[Pherick]

As long as it's 6x1.5" I'll probably buy one. As was said recently, favorite charity. Who needs to retire?

[jtb]

Madsen tours in wet snow and comes around to the viability of TTS. Tahoe tele tourers raise a glass!

[muffin]

I think a cheaper NTN binding option like this is good idea.

[Pherick]

The OutlawX does develop some slop after a couple heavy seasons. Nothing that impacts performance much, but they rattle and feel less solid. I've sent two pairs back to be re-riveted by 22D. If there was a model that didn't need this, all the better.

I wonder it they'll go Hammerhead and get the spring out from underfoot?

[JackO]

Do we need toe-cage NTN anymore?

[Pherick]

If you want to smash big skis with anything other than an EvoWC, you do.

[WoW]

Madsen tours in wet snow and comes around to the viability of TTS. Tahoe tele tourers raise a glass!

I skied yesterday, 7400'-9200' mainly north and east facing and I skied today 6200'-10k shady aspects on the Voile transit.
I found very good skiing with no wet snow issues. Didn't wax my skins, the underfoot icing issue Dostie was having, minimal.
I used the tall lifters most of the day on the up because, well, it's the Wasatch. I did describe the icing in my test review of the binding on the other thread.
Need pics?

[telenerd]

I guess the elephant in the room is, will 22 Designs recall the Lynx for its claw release issue when going downhill. I’ve experienced it and now Madsen finally admitted it on podcast along with others. Time will tell.

[cesare]

Great to see you here, Bob!

Batting 1.000 this season on JaPOW days--40 something days and every one of them a powder day--I'm so jaded at this point. I have never had the snow buildup or claw release issues everybody else seems to be describing. But I also find it hard to motivate to go out when the snow is bad. Yes, I am that spoiled. Now I'm giving it a little time to settle out since we are in the middle of a major thaw. Earlier and earlier every season. We've gone from powder every day to not freezing or barely freezing every night, resulting in heavy mashed potatoes or breakable crust. I am waiting for things to corn up and then it will be on again for sunny days. Maybe that attitude is why I haven't had any issues. But in my eighth year teleing almost exclusively backcountry with tech toes I have yet to experience this in any of my DIY TTS setups or with Lynx or with other bindings I have skied in with Dostie.

I did notice that my friend Lori, who was here the last couple of weeks, has a pair of new Lynx in size S and her claws are not nearly as tight as mine are. I run two spacers on each spring from the jump and they have shown no sign of that problem.

Maybe I'm just getting lazy in my advancing decriptitude.

[Pherick]

I guess the elephant in the room is, will 22 Designs recall the Lynx for its claw release issue when going downhill. I’ve experienced it and now Madsen finally admitted it on podcast along with others. Time will tell.

That would be terrible for them. I hope they try a fix first. I can think of some that would only cost some plastic.

It's a crappy issue, but I don't know that I'd want (the best?) tele binding company getting tanked for it.

[JackO]

If you want to smash big skis with anything other than an EvoWC, you do.

Point taken, I definitely understand the current situation in terms of gear/norm availability.

Looking at it more hypothetically, I'm questioning if cage-toe NTN has a great place going forward considering where TTS and NTN tech are at. Maybe I'm using the logic that sort of celebrates 75mm's death (which I don't dig, but get), but the gear progression is moving a certain direction with only so many users - and it seems to be toward telemark with tech toes. Maybe tech arms aren't quite as robust as the cage, but they seem to hold up. And I'm in the camp that thinks tech telemark bindings ski better. Admittedly I don't use cage-NTN though I've tried them and don't prefer the bindings.

I see NTN's advantage as being chiefly from its touring capabilities when the norm incorporates a tech toe. And the prayer of release in an avalanche. For instance, it's pretty clear there isn't a sound argument advocating 75mm over NTN as a touring setup. It's murkier when discussing resort setups. I think the tech norms are bigger tents and a more clear move forward.

[Pherick]

Point taken, I definitely understand the current situation in terms of gear/norm availability.

Looking at it more hypothetically, I'm questioning if cage-toe NTN has a great place going forward considering where TTS and NTN tech are at. Maybe I'm using the logic that sort of celebrates 75mm's death (which I don't dig, but get), but the gear progression is moving a certain direction with only so many users - and it seems to be toward telemark with tech toes. Maybe tech arms aren't quite as robust as the cage, but they seem to hold up. And I'm in the camp that thinks tech telemark bindings ski better. Admittedly I don't use cage-NTN though I've tried them and don't prefer the bindings.

I see NTN's advantage as being chiefly from its touring capabilities when the norm incorporates a tech toe. And the prayer of release in an avalanche. For instance, it's pretty clear there isn't a sound argument advocating 75mm over NTN as a touring setup. It's murkier when discussing resort setups. I think the tech norms are bigger tents and a more clear move forward.

I imagine there's a certain progressive flex pattern that's hard to imitate without holding part of the boot the way a cage does. There's something there from a performance standpoint.

If there was a way to get more of what a binding does in terms of flex into the boot, there might be a strong argument for a cage. Or in a crazy world, the progressive flex could be in the cage itself.

The more I think around the challenges of bindings, I'm very impressed with everything that is out there already. It's a wicked engineering problem, requirement-wise. Rigidity and flexibility, weight and strength, multi-mode, safety, a range of sizes on boot interface, cost, operating temperature range, relative simplicity, durability. It's crazy that anyone takes this on. The DIYers on this forum are brave and ridiculously clever/skilled.