Telemark article at Wild Snow

[Danno]

just read on TGR that Wildsnow was recently sold (by whoever bought it from Lou)?

[Todd Eastman]

Hemingway wrote about the joys of "straight running" on skis and likely considered turns to be emasculating...

... Hemingway's dead and turns are cool!

[The Tantalus Field]

Tele'r than thou, your formative experiences reminded me of my own theories and preferences while sliding on two planks.

First off Snowboarding most likeley predated skiing, but using two boards was most effective for utilitarian purposes and proliferated to the point that evidence of ancient snowboarding was lost. But vestiges of skiing's origins on one board are still visible. Ancient nordic skiers used one big and one small ski suggesting that riding mostly on one board was the goal at the time. And Turkish Petran boarding is a sofisticated practice of powder surfing that predates all skiing in the region.

Second the best technique is the one that is most effective for the moment considering terrain, snow conditions, the physical/mental condition of the skier and what just happened in the last turn. A skilled freeheel skier employs Pturns, Tturns and Monomark turns (using a front and back foot that don't change through a series of turns, like snowboarding on skis) with a wide variety of entry and exit strategies that include flexion, extension, early-late-simul lead changes and variation of lead intensity in order to maintain balance laterally and fore-aft while adapting to the terrain and snow conditions.

Several years ago I coined the phrase 'Norheim's Dilemma' to honor the founder of modern skiing while expressing the fundamental question I face at the start of every turn "Should I Parrallel, Telemark or Snowboard?"

My hope is that we all find the ourselves executing the turns that make the biggest smiles on our faces.

[Tele'r ThanThou]

I grew up surfing and skating vert. I snowboarded until I ended up in MT and working in a mountain shop. I tell what, learning to move on 2 planks going face forward was the hardest part for me. I still kinda think of a teleturn to be more akin to frontside/backside turns than alpine. Trying alpine reinforced my thoughts. Started tele in 97 and tried alpine a couple years ago. Having my heel locked down had me feeling like a cat with tape on its paw and felt like my knees were more at risk? Felt ok on groomers but in the pow it was all struggle-buggy for me. I have been practicing P-turns a lot more this year and have to say I dig em!! I never P-turned or tried on 75mm until Axls. I figure it is always better to have more goodies in the bag-o-trix. I have NtN/TXComp/OutlawX now and am loving the P-turn as it is a new learning experience and fun when I get it right. I wouldn't mind a better techtoe boot selection(I think everyone would too) but for now I will keep doing T and P turns in an 'impulsive' style as I find that to be the FUNNEST to go down the mountain. Being committed to always skiing the fall line has always kinda bothered me coming from surfing, so I am kinda impulsive about me lines too. Being that our local hill has multiple fall lines makes it all the more fun.
Many things, many ways.
As Vision would say.....'Don't Die Wondering'

[xmatt]

This is an interesting post for sure. No, i’m not referring to skiing easy low angle cruisers on either gear. I’m talking about skiing any terrain, the more difficult the terrain the better the example with my analogy. Just to be clear, what you’re saying is you ski faster making tele turns given the same terrain as compared to making parallel turns? That’s the interesting part here. No offense here but my guess is you’re not skiing very fast to begin with and maybe your safe place in tough terrain is to get low on your less active tele gear. I don’t know many or maybe any who would claim it’s faster down the hill to make tele turns vs. p-turns. Or for that matter more of a stable turn to make given challenging conditions. I’ll pose this question to you. If you were in fairly steep no fall terrain what would be your default turn when it got a little dicey?

Yes, I'm saying that on freeheel gear, in variable snow and terrain, I can go faster using tele turns. Fixed heel alpine would be even faster, of course. Actually, the fastest on freeheel for me would be a mix of alpine and tele depending on lots of things, but I maintain that for me tele would be an essential part. Regarding how I ski, well, we'd have to ski together, but I generally tele fairly tall, not low. And when I ski inbounds, it is primarily at Alpental, and I ski all terrain both inbounds and side country there, and that is a tough mountain as resorts go. I'm not going as fast as the really good freeriders there, but can still hang with good fixed heel skiers. If the tele turn has no technical use for your freeheel skiing, that just sounds crazy to me. An alpine turn on freeheel gear will lack the forward commitment in many cases, so it is hard to ski aggressively.

Yes, in no fall terrain I often make use of alpine turns if edge hold is essential. That doesn't contradict what I am talking about. In no fall terrain, each turn I am trying to control and not going that fast. Above, I am talking about using tele turns for forward commitment for more aggressive skiing in stuff other than no-fall terrain. Sometimes in no fall terrain I use a turn shape that I just kind of started doing; never seen it discussed, but I'm curious your opinion since you seem to know a lot. I finish alpine stance, maximum edge hold. Then, I slide my uphill ski back a tiny bit, not quite all the way to tele, to enable a slight bit of more commitment before pedalling off it for a peddle hop. This photo kind of shows what I mean, though not the best example; what I'm on right there isn't so steep, but it rolls over sharply, definitely becomes no fall on the next turn and continuing for a while, and is quite firm.


Here's a few videos of me skiing. Mellow backcountry terrain, of course, and I do not claim that I am going particularly fast in any of them. But not low and slow I think! The first one is very gloppy sunaffect

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vIEttz294Wf8rcfRa3OXK3f8UUV8IN46/view?usp=share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Zxhp0nyIFTZ6zgUBqjcLerm1AzQB-I07/view?usp=share_link

[Allan Fici]

I use less up/down motion on teles, on hardpack, reduced fore/aft lead changes. . Having back issues, I find I use/need less angulation than Alpine turns. Tele is easier on my back, weight is more evenly balanced between my skis. I use more bend at the hip and knees on teles to absorb bumps. I prefer teles for carving on smooth groomers.
I've been carving a lot on groomers with our "late snow"season. This is on TX Comps, Outlaws and Volkl Kendos, a heavy carving ski 92 UF.

Whereas , in the woods, in powder snow I ski lower, for stability. More fore/aft lead changes of skis, to increase fore/aft stability, so I don't go over the handlebars in variable Wild Snow. Same boots, Wailer 112s.
my 2c worth.

These posts are all good and my point in my post you quoted was aimed at understanding why the telemark turn is not more popular than it is. Just to make sure I understand what you’re saying is you ski hard pack snow making tele turns more easily, faster and with less effort than you would on alpine/ fixed heel gear making p-turns? Also your comment about more evenly weighted skis skiing tele? I know you know there are 4 edges on your 2 skis and making p-turns you weight both skis as evenly as possible using 2 of the 4 edges. It’s a similar concept skiing tele except you’re doing the tele genuflect with the uphill ski which challenges the even weight distribution. Which requires more focus on weighting that uphill ski.

And in powder you adopt the get low and go slow mode for stability so you don’t go over the bars? Do you lock your cuffs? There’s power in those locked cuffs which allows you to ski more compact fore and aft and still making the compression and release that comes with skiing deeper snow. I’m all about the quick edge change to react to skiing tight terrain in soft snow. Getting low does not fit in that equation unless it’s maybe a survival mode thing for a recovery.

I’ve been Nordic skiing since around 1970 and alpine skiing a few years before that. The tele turn came for me on the Nordic gear to learn to turn those straight hippy sticks we were in then in structureless boots and wimpy 3 pins. We had to get low to ski that stuff. We don’t have to get low to ski our tele gear now and it’s less efficient more work and slower to do so. That’s just just my opinion in this tele turn we all (most) love here.

[Allan Fici]

I disagree and I have personal data. Ok, if it comes to skiing for a long time efficiently on easy hardpack, sure, parallel is easier. But when it comes to skiing fast and in control on variable terrain, I disagree and have data. I chose 3 pitches, which were "easy resort blacks". I skied each run twice, once forcing myself to take only tele turns, and once skiing primarily alpine but allowing myself a tele if it came out. The first run, I skied about 10-15% faster on tele, it was a bump tree run. The second run, I thought I nailed it on alpine, skied it as well as I could and it was long bumps that I could gs through, perfect for alpine. Exact same time skiing tele, even though I felt like I didn't have the same rhythm. Final run, variable conditions and terrain, crushed it on tele, crashed skiing alpine trying to match the time. For me, tele was the clear winner. This was on 85mm-ish skis, TXP boots, Freeride bindings setup with very low tension. Maybe stiffer bindings alpine turns are more competitive, but for me, that's not the tele setup I want.

This is an interesting post for sure. No, i’m not referring to skiing easy low angle cruisers on either gear. I’m talking about skiing any terrain, the more difficult the terrain the better the example with my analogy. Just to be clear, what you’re saying is you ski faster making tele turns given the same terrain as compared to making parallel turns? That’s the interesting part here. No offense here but my guess is you’re not skiing very fast to begin with and maybe your safe place in tough terrain is to get low on your less active tele gear. I don’t know many or maybe any who would claim it’s faster down the hill to make tele turns vs. p-turns. Or for that matter more of a stable turn to make given challenging conditions. I’ll pose this question to you. If you were in fairly steep no fall terrain what would be your default turn when it got a little dicey?
I’ll share a story told by my friend Scott H. that runs the Wagner ski factory in Telluride. This is not verbatim but it went something like this. In the early 90’s Scott had moved to Telluride and was invited to ski with the local posse around T-ride. At that time we were all still skiing leather. Super Comps and a cable binding and whatever ski you had. On an outing Scott was trying to execute all tele turns in pretty serious terrain and going over the bars. after one fall in a bit so good spot Himay Palmer pulled him aside and said; look Scott you’ve got to learn to make more p-turns in this serious stuff or we won’t be asking you to join us on these ski outings. They did not want to be doing a rescue on one of their posse.

[PeteMatul]

Moved to the "Dostie, Telemark and Baldy Bowl" thread.

[Dostie]

I am not arguing that telemark is not more strenuous, less efficient, or as fast as alpine in all conditions. Every kit will be different from any other in those aspects. I am only arguing that it is no more difficult to learn how to telemark than it is to learn how to alpine ski.

Ordinarily I'd simply dismiss this argument, but knowing cesare as I do, I'll restate his thesis. For most of us, the difficulty of learning to telemark isn't that it is so difficult so much as it is difficult to undo the habits of parallel turning to allow for the telemark stance. That is what makes it hard to learn. I know from personal experience that when I have taught a rank beginner on free heel gear, it was no more difficult to learn the basics with a free heel as it was compared to someone learning with a fixed heel. And for someone who learned to tele first, learning to parallel requires the opposite unlearning of nordic habits to do the alpine dance. So cesare has a point.

[Allan Fici]

What a silly discussion…

… what stokes you is by far the best, most efficient, and by far the coolest…😎

It may seem a bit silly to you and it kinda is. I think this discussion is trying to surmise why the telemark turn is not more popular than it is currently. Most all of us here are part of the tele choir, so we may not need the preaching but this is a valid discussion with quite a few different perspectives on potential reason why.

[Todd Eastman]

Telemark was the intermediate turn taught before the stem christie in the pre-lift era…😎

[cesare]

I am not arguing that telemark is not more strenuous, less efficient, or as fast as alpine in all conditions. Every kit will be different from any other in those aspects. I am only arguing that it is no more difficult to learn how to telemark than it is to learn how to alpine ski.

[Todd Eastman]

What a silly discussion…

… what stokes you is by far the best, most efficient, and by far the coolest…😎

[chamonix]

Physically skiing on hardpacked snow the tele turn is I believe harder because of the more exaggerated up/ down motion and fore and aft lead changes vs p-turns.

I use less up/down motion on teles, on hardpack, reduced fore/aft lead changes. . Having back issues, I find I use/need less angulation than Alpine turns. Tele is easier on my back, weight is more evenly balanced between my skis. I use more bend at the hip and knees on teles to absorb bumps. I prefer teles for carving on smooth groomers.
I've been carving a lot on groomers with our "late snow"season. This is on TX Comps, Outlaws and Volkl Kendos, a heavy carving ski 92 UF.

Whereas , in the woods, in powder snow I ski lower, for stability. More fore/aft lead changes of skis, to increase fore/aft stability, so I don't go over the handlebars in variable Wild Snow. Same boots, Wailer 112s.
my 2c worth.

[xmatt]

I don’t have any data to back this up but I do believe that with the same tele gear, say a resort rig with a big boot and say an Axl or Outlaw binding on a 105mm UF all mountain ski you can ski longer and more efficiently with less fatigue making all p-turns vs making all tele turns. Does anyone not agree with this?

I disagree and I have personal data. Ok, if it comes to skiing for a long time efficiently on easy hardpack, sure, parallel is easier. But when it comes to skiing fast and in control on variable terrain, I disagree and have data. I chose 3 pitches, which were "easy resort blacks". I skied each run twice, once forcing myself to take only tele turns, and once skiing primarily alpine but allowing myself a tele if it came out. The first run, I skied about 10-15% faster on tele, it was a bump tree run. The second run, I thought I nailed it on alpine, skied it as well as I could and it was long bumps that I could gs through, perfect for alpine. Exact same time skiing tele, even though I felt like I didn't have the same rhythm. Final run, variable conditions and terrain, crushed it on tele, crashed skiing alpine trying to match the time. For me, tele was the clear winner. This was on 85mm-ish skis, TXP boots, Freeride bindings setup with very low tension. Maybe stiffer bindings alpine turns are more competitive, but for me, that's not the tele setup I want.