new scarpa boot guess

[bobbytooslow]

re: the death of 75mm... The world does not need more 75mm boots sitting on shelves. The used gear marketplace has more almost-new ones than we'll ever need. These photos are from a used gear shop in Flagstaff, AZ this spring -- the inventory in real ski towns has to be far greater. Facebook Marketplace has literally hundreds as well. When only cockroaches are roaming the earth, they'll be stepping over black & silver T1's.

[bobbytooslow]

Thanks JackO. That makes sense. Yes, 100%, any new boot has to feel good making telemark turns. Am I naïve to think that the manufacturers share this belief?

Re: parity in terms of breadth of offerings, I don't think anyone expects there to be as many offerings as there are in the alpine/AT lines. But it's not unrealistic to hope for maybe a "re-prioritized parity with what Scarpa has historically offered for tele."

Pre-NTN, there were 4 models based off (someone correct me if I'm wrong) two scafo molds. T1 & T-Race from a "heavier" mold, and T2 & T3/4 from a "lighter" mold. Recently, they have had TX Pro & TX Comp sharing a mold, and T2 & T4 still sharing that same older mold.

By all indications, a new Scarpa tele boot (flawed as testers may feel it to be) would use a new mold & manufacturing process. Dropping 75mm allows them to continue with that same paradigm, while adding in incremental updates like a modern walk mode. TX Comp can stay the same. TX Pro can use the same scafo and an updated cuff + lever. The new mold could fill the role of the NTN T2 (i.e. telemark Maestrale) and, if demand someday calls for it, perhaps an NTN T4-ish variant.

I have no idea how Scarpa actually views all of this, but hoping for an updated version of what they've already been doing seems more realistic than comparing anything to their vast range of alpine/AT offerings.

[JackO]

Obvs Dostie is the expert here but my take:

Parity here principally means weight, to a degree materials (certainly related to that), then features related to leading alpine boots.

An example of my thoughts: integrating a better walk mode like you might see on certain alpine boots seems hard to be worried about, but different, lighter plastics gives me pause due to how they would affect the flex in the turn.

One more edit to add: I do think there is a striving for a cultural parity with alpine as well, but that’s a much different discussion

[bobbytooslow]

JackO and Dostie What does "parity with alpine/AT" mean?

[jasonq]

I do share many of Jack's concerns.

i have a theory that every great invention through history was the answer to the question "how can i be more lazy than i am now?". Even telemarking fits that bill, "how can i be more lazy getting from here to there on snow?" "how can i get to the top of that hill in a more lazy fashion?" free pivot binding, etc, etc.

the problem i see in the match AT game is it will take at least 3 different boot platforms to match AT (in scarpa speak, tele versions of the quatro, maestrale, and F1, with each having different models so something like 9 seperate models), and there is no way there will be 3 boot platforms/9 models. Which means the answer for someone relative to today is "i will have to be less lazy," which is a terrible answer for a human. And evev with 3 boot platforms, tele has to be lazier than AT in some way to get over the inherently non-lazy aspect of learning to telemark. Or telemarking has to be easier to learn than alpine for the complete skiing noob.

And if the entire spectrum is not a viable option, it leaves target the broad middle. Aka, mastrale class. it can do anything. But that is basically the TXP. new materials, new buckles, better walk mode. slightly lower weight (100-200 grams??), likely much better walk mode, skis better?. if there is a Pro and Comp version like today, probably all upside, but not that much up side. there will be small uptick in sales as some people (us) will buy new boots early, but my guess is that it doesn't change the long term trend, ie, it will pull up some future demand for boots, but not change the overall demand in the long term. (coincidentally, i see marketing professionals confuse pulled up demand to market growth all the time)

and that is the problem. no change or small change in demand due to new boots. because "how can i be more lazy that I am now", the answer for someone that does not telemark is never "learn to telemark". That fundamentally limits bringing in new people. So the question must be something else, but what that question is where the answer is "learn to telemark" i don't know.

[JackO]

Now I think what holds Scarpa back isn't whether their new boot will sell like hotcakes, but will it sell on par with their AT choices. I think that's the rub. And I also think they need to reset their design goals so they don't kill the turn while trying to achieve parity with AT boots. IMO the latter is impossible without turning the boot into an alpine boot.

I really like how you put this Craig - this speaks to my (and probably a lot of other's) reluctance for 75mm's retail death to be celebrated. I'm worried the move forward means just this: forsaking the turn for parity with alpine with no option out as a consumer at some point (when 75mm really kicks the bucket).

I feel like a lot of the negative reaction to the recent disco's on 75mm boots is met with apathy, and duckbill lovers are even cast as being ignorant and reactionary (some comments on the internet are certainly like that) but I think some skepticism (not Luddite-ism) of the way forward is warranted. I'm on the side that has researched the new options, skied many of them (and liked them) but I still worry what's lost in a telemark world where parity with alpine comes first. I think that's a slippery slope toward gear that brings great non-telemark attributes to the fold, but makes for a lousier turn. I'd much rather have a heavier boot with fewer features if that means I get a great feeling turn. But I know there is a cohort that is maybe a little more utilitarian in their mindset given what their main usage of the gear is.

Not sure what ever happened to tele.skier, but he spoke of the new gear being too rigid, allowing less finesse, getting too close to alpine - though his feelings on that went all the way back to HH on 5. But I agree - in my opinion, telemark is bound for a suboptimal future if the gear gets that close to alpine with the turn coming second. I understand the economical viability of 75mm is waning. But if the new boots don't turn nicely the sport's retrograde continues or worsens, and that many more end up alpining instead of telemarking.

[Dostie]

Yes! Dostie has sipped the Kool-aid!

Any idea how far along Scarpa is with the design? Is it done (in their eyes) and they're just waiting for the go-ahead from the bean counters? Or are they still tweaking?

Sipping for now. Anticipating the big gulp.


How far along? Too far.

I've had a hard time wrapping my head around what is taking so long. Scarpa took the plunge on the first evah plastic tele boot when the market was a fraction of what it is today. So why the reluctance to produce a boot that should, by the bean counting metrics be an uncontested winner?

When Scarpa made the first PTB the image of backcountry was tied to telemark. It no longer is. Less obvious unless you lived through that time period - AT was a miniscule blip on the radar of backcountry equipment. At least in America. There were very few AT boot options, and what there was was heavy, clunky, and squeeky. Dynafit had been introduced, but few took it seriously. Not in 1994. As interest in AT grew, so did the boot options, and Scarpa was part of that.

Now I think what holds Scarpa back isn't whether their new boot will sell like hotcakes, but will it sell on par with their AT choices. I think that's the rub. And I also think they need to reset their design goals so they don't kill the turn while trying to achieve parity with AT boots. IMO the latter is impossible without turning the boot into an alpine boot.

[Pherick]

Twenty Twenty Fourever

Whole lot of global economic insanity between now and 2024. We'll see what this winter does to the gear market. I predict historic clearance sales by springtime.

[bobbytooslow]

Unproven but I think I'm an F1 retro-grouch.

Yes! Dostie has sipped the Kool-aid!

Any idea how far along Scarpa is with the design? Is it done (in their eyes) and they're just waiting for the go-ahead from the bean counters? Or are they still tweaking?

[Dostie]

Would 2024 mean showing it Jan 2024, or would be it be available for 2023/2024 winter?

God only knows.

Unproven but I think I'm an F1 retro-grouch.

[bobbytooslow]

And then a recession is going to hit, and the boots will get delayed further...

If new boots ever do come out, I'll buy them. But I'm not holding my breath. I've become fairly satisfied with my four-boot quiver (not including duplicates):

- TX Pro for lift-serve hard charging
- Merrell SuperComp for lift-serve goofing around
- Regular F1 for backcountry turn-earning
- F1 Carbon for vert accumulating

Not much modding necessary, just some plastic removal to achieve the flex I like.

[xmatt]

U B prescient.

Would 2024 mean showing it Jan 2024, or would be it be available for 2023/2024 winter?

[Dostie]

My guess is 2024. Sorry guys.

U B prescient.

[jasonq]

the good. It lists Davide Parisotto as an inventor. Davide is like the head guy at scarpa and from the founding family. the bad, this was filed in 2009, and looks like the F1 race from that era. The good is that is is still active (there is a fee with maintaining a patent, at least in the US, but this is an EU patent). The bad, this is from 2009. The good, if this is what the new scarpa tele boot will be based on, they have been working on it for going on 15 years, so it should be totally dialed. the bad, this was filed in 2009.

[telenerd]

Old post. Hum what’s this? Looks like a f1. No idea on how to read patents or if this is just old.

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2227974A1/zh