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  • #91
    I don't know much about AT, but with telemark I like the feel of lighter boots... F3's with mid or fat skis, and F1 Races with mid-width skis. It's like you're surfing the snow rather than powering through it with TXP's, if that makes any sense. I also like softer bindings, which pair better with F3's than TXP's, even at the resort.

    If we literally got the F3 and F1 Race with no modifications and a bolt-on duckbutt, that would round out the NTN line really well. It would fill the T2 and T3/T4 role. Of course I have no idea how easy or possible it is to revive old molds, and there's definitely room for improvement in the walk mode of both boots, but as a thought experiment that's really what people are asking for, except maybe at the fringe. I think if tele skiers had easy access to F3+Meidjo or F1 Race+Voile TTS, fewer would be clinging to 75mm gear or switching to Xplore or NNN BC rather than NTN/TTN/TTS. The F3 skis very similar to T2's, and the F1 Race skis similar to T3's.

    I know that's not what Scarpa is working on, just my 2 cents about what I think would be good for the sport.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by jtb View Post
      I think if tele skiers had easy access to F3+Meidjo or F1 Race+Voile TTS, fewer would be clinging to 75mm gear or switching to Xplore or NNN BC rather than NTN/TTN/TTS. The F3 skis very similar to T2's, and the F1 Race skis similar to T3's.
      This would be great for the sport too. I've gotten a few questions about my gear from people I've met in the bc, including from people who tele in the resort but AT in the backcountry, and there is no easy way for someone to get a similar setup without looking for obscure new-old-stock or whatever. Would be way different to say "yeah, it's the new Scarpa F1X (or whatever you want to call it) boots, with the Voile TTS bindings, just go online, give em your credit card, and it will be yours."

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      • #93
        Originally posted by jtb View Post
        If we literally got the F3 and F1 Race with no modifications and a bolt-on duckbutt, that would round out the NTN line really well. It would fill the T2 and T3/T4 role... I think if tele skiers had easy access to F3+Meidjo or F1 Race+Voile TTS, fewer would be clinging to 75mm gear or switching to Xplore or NNN BC rather than NTN/TTN/TTS. The F3 skis very similar to T2's, and the F1 Race skis similar to T3's.

        I know that's not what Scarpa is working on, just my 2 cents about what I think would be good for the sport.
        Truth. The F3 really is just a T2X with tech fittings instead of a duckbill.

        Dostie, do you know why this is seemingly not even being considered? Maybe these boots won't provide the durability that tele skiers have come to expect? Someone previously said something about how companies, as a principle, just don't go backwards like that; new tech/materials = buzz = sales. But yeah, even though it's not what they're doing, it does seem like the path of least resistance from A to B.

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        • #94
          They could always use new colors, buckles, and liners with the old molds, and call it a new model. That's what they've been doing with the TXP for 15 years, and the T2 more or less for 25 years

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          • #95
            Originally posted by bobbytooslow View Post
            Truth. The F3 really is just a T2X with tech fittings instead of a duckbill.

            Dostie, do you know why this is seemingly not even being considered?
            Sigh.

            I can't explain why they couldn't have just offered a TX-Tour with a better cuff ROM six years ago.

            Speculation: They set a high bar that included reducing weight. Everything I've seen has improved ROM with less weight but the flex was flawed. They had some good ideas but those concepts compromised the tele turn. I think the problem is old fashioned pride. They are internally adamant to meet their goals, but those goals remain elusive. If they let go of the weight thing, like I said, they could've delivered a "better" tele boot years ago.

            I gave up waiting. Found an F1 and modified it. It's summer. The wind is nuking in the Gulf. I'm going kiteboarding.


            ain't no turn like tele!

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Dostie View Post
              Sigh.

              I can't explain why they couldn't have just offered a TX-Tour with a better cuff ROM six years ago.

              Speculation: They set a high bar that included reducing weight. Everything I've seen has improved ROM with less weight but the flex was flawed. They had some good ideas but those concepts compromised the tele turn. I think the problem is old fashioned pride. They are internally adamant to meet their goals, but those goals remain elusive. If they let go of the weight thing, like I said, they could've delivered a "better" tele boot years ago.

              I gave up waiting. Found an F1 and modified it. It's summer. The wind is nuking in the Gulf. I'm going kiteboarding.
              That doesn't make sense to me. The F3 and F1 are both significantly lighter than TX. It is possible to get that light weight, and the F3 skis about the same as TX. I'm happy with how they flex. And it seems like Dostie is happy with the flex of the F1. So, light weight, good flex.

              I think the reason is: they realized that you could get that light weight with decent flex if you didn't worry about it working in an NTN toe cage and made it tech-toe-only. But they don't want to sell a tech-toe-only boot, even though it makes sense for touring, because they have too much invested in NTN. Makes sense to me: working in a toe cage require a lot more plastic up front due to extra stresses on boot.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by xmatt View Post
                I think the reason is: they realized that you could get that light weight with decent flex if you didn't worry about it working in an NTN toe cage and made it tech-toe-only. But they don't want to sell a tech-toe-only boot, even though it makes sense for touring, because they have too much invested in NTN. Makes sense to me: working in a toe cage require a lot more plastic up front due to extra stresses on boot.
                Interesting idea. It kinda relates to Pierre's idea for an NTN toe cage that rotates about the same axis as toe pins. Nothing is clamped down or prying, and all boots can have the same flex characteristics no matter what.

                In an ideal world, this is how NTN would have been from the beginning. But there are too many Outlaw lovers out there and others not wanting yet another norm; any new boot has to be backwards compatible with toe-cage NTN. You're right, reviving an F1/F3 isn't quite as simple as slapping on a duckbutt. The toe lug needs to be redesigned too.

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                • #98
                  Are you saying changing the dimensions of the sole at the toe of an F1/F3 is difficult? C'mon man. They've spent who knows how much trying to engineer other things and that's all it would take? I mean, you're correct, but based on results that is too simple of a solution to be considered. Why?

                  Besides, they could pass the solution to the binding manufacturers who could easily accomodate a different toe shape with plastic nubs on the side of the toe cage to take up the slack. Again, not difficult.

                  ain't no turn like tele!

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Dostie View Post
                    Are you saying changing the dimensions of the sole at the toe of an F1/F3 is difficult? C'mon man. They've spent who knows how much trying to engineer other things and that's all it would take? I mean, you're correct, but based on results that is too simple of a solution to be considered. Why?
                    I'm saying that just changing the dimensions wouldn't be enough. Once you start using it in a toe cage, then the boot has to work in a situation where the toe doesn't rotate at all while the bellows is flexed. And it has to work even if someone is "levering" up at the heel, rather than pushing down at the bellows. That makes the boot bend over a shorter distance near the toe than in a TTS or TTN. So, you need tougher plastic there, while keeping flexiblity. I think it is hard to do that: first time Scarpa tried, with the original TX, half the boots cracked.

                    My dream: once Voile comes out with TTS, Scarpa will just realize that a tech-toe-only boot is fine with several major tech-toe-only bindings available......

                    Comment


                    • Mid-summer greetings. It looks like the discussion on boots remains as robust as ever.

                      Personally, why not have a T2, F1-model NTN, Maestrale-model NTN and call it good for the next 20 years? The 75mm and NTN folks would be reasonably happy, still have enough to tinker with, and the ROM and weight complaints for NTN users would (should?) be quieter.

                      Originally posted by xmatt View Post
                      the F3 skis about the same as TX.
                      There may be significant agreement on that point with the TTS crowd, but I don't agree. I find the Tx smoother and more capable of skiing crappy conditions and steeper lines. Maybe I need to tinker with a TTS binding to get the F1/F3 to work for me as well as the Tx, but the Tx/Tx Pro feel very different to me than the F1/F3 boots on the way down.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by xmatt View Post
                        I'm saying that just changing the dimensions wouldn't be enough. Once you start using it in a toe cage, then the boot has to work in a situation where the toe doesn't rotate at all while the bellows is flexed. And it has to work even if someone is "levering" up at the heel, rather than pushing down at the bellows. That makes the boot bend over a shorter distance near the toe than in a TTS or TTN. So, you need tougher plastic there, while keeping flexiblity. I think it is hard to do that: first time Scarpa tried, with the original TX, half the boots cracked.
                        Ah yes, forgot about that. It is also why TX-Comp won't ever have tech inserts. I'm not sure that is why the early TX's cracked, but the point you make is valid.


                        ain't no turn like tele!

                        Comment


                        • Good explanation, xmatt. All of this illustrates the wisdom & vision of Pierre's rotating toe cage binding.

                          In a perfect world:
                          - All tele boots would have tech fittings at the toe and a construction optimized for flexion with a pivoting toe.
                          - Touring-minded tele bindings would have toe pins.
                          - Resort-only tele bindings would have a rotating toe cage and no "tour mode" mechanism.
                          - Bindings that clamp down on the toe lug (and require extra-beefy boot sole construction) wouldn't exist.

                          But... NTN happened. People are invested. The market won't support yet another big shift like that. And as Madsen has said, there's nobody really steering this thing. A more realistic hope is that things shift gradually, piecemeal, via individual product releases by the various players in the game. Something like:

                          - Scarpa makes a new T2/F3/Maestrale type boot with construction optimized for flex with a pivoting toe, and it works decently enough in existing fixed toe cage bindings.
                          - The M releases their rotating toe cage binding, which works great with the new boots and decently enough with existing TXP/TXC/etc. It is simple and cheaper than existing options.
                          - Scarpa updates the TXP/TXC with a construction more optimized for a rotating toe, but they also work decently enough with existing fixed toe cage bindings.
                          - Customers vote with their wallets for these newer, simpler bindings, and bindings with a fixed toe cage + tour pivot mechanism go to the dustbin.

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                          • Madsen did a Q&A on Facebook.


                            Q: When is Scarpa coming out with new boots?

                            A: Never...haha. But on a real note, from what I'm hearing it's probably Fall '23 and that is at least 1 boot. No word of a line-up yet.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by bobbytooslow View Post
                              Madsen did a Q&A on Facebook.


                              Q: When is Scarpa coming out with new boots?

                              A: Never...haha. But on a real note, from what I'm hearing it's probably Fall '23 and that is at least 1 boot. No word of a line-up yet.
                              If that schedule is going to stick we should see some sort of preview from Scarpa in January. If I had another pair of TX new in a box at this point I almost wouldn't care. But I don't.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mo pow View Post

                                If that schedule is going to stick we should see some sort of preview from Scarpa in January. If I had another pair of TX new in a box at this point I almost wouldn't care. But I don't.
                                Interesting. I spoke with my friend at Scarpa in Boulder last weekend. He said Scarpa does not have any plans for releasing the new boot this upcoming winter and has very little information that the new boot will even be ready by the next season after that. Said don’t hold your breath waiting. Lol

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