new scarpa boot guess

[JackO]

How much of the XC crowd is going to end up on Xplore? If that platform beats NTN to a T4 equivalent I’d say NTN will remain the realm of heavy telemark.

Having essentially a ‘beginners’ norm with 75mm vs. an ‘advanced’ norm with NTN seems problematic. The cost issue is absolutely real, but then there is a never ending cycle of converting people to NTN (as long as there is easily accessible 75mm gear, which should be a while). That doesn’t seem to bode well for NTNs ascendency and eventual capturing of the business, and it doesn’t monetize entry level sales for the manufacturers well. Not that I personally want that, but the boot manufacturers probably do.

Binding manufacturers making the boots feels like the holy grail of this situation. Quicker turnaround time, less bureaucracy, more innovation.

The F1x solution seems so feasible and that it would check a lot of boxes for people like us. My next thought is that 6200 people listened to Madsen’s beginner podcast just on YouTube, 1000 for the UTN one. For the sake of a thought experiment: The hypothetical F1x is made for a decent amount of existing tele skiers, but represents a small fraction of the whole because it leaves out a lot of potential users by making something so specific and non-entry level. I wonder if Scarpa is thinking along similar lines.

[xmatt]

I think the present boots and bindings are awesome for inbounds skiing. It's really hard to imagine much improvement. The only thing that we lack is lightweight, good RoM for backcountry. And again, I think the only thinking stopping that is the toe cage. Make a tech-only boot and it works great....the old F1 and F3 are pretty great despite being made on 15 year old technology and never being intended for tele use at all. So, Scarpa, just go bring back the old F1, upgrade it a little, add on a bolt-on duckbutt (should be easy for them...they could probably make a jig to drill holes in the boot), add a heel groove and bellows guard. Call it the F1X, and have done.

[ryandaum]

My hot take is this sport is screwed if we are relying on one boot manufacturer to someday pull a rabbit out of a hat to make a new boot for us, and also expect the others (Crispi, maybe Scott) to follow.

Even if Scarpa were to do it this year (sounds like they won't. and likely not next year either), that's still not a healthy situation. Only one boot mfr is not a good situ even if the new boot is awesome. I can't make the TX Pro fit me, and I wear Crispis because of that. What guarantee do we have that Crispi will even still continue to make boots after a new Scarpa is out? The sport will shrink if there's no options for people. And if the new boot specializes for backcountry, that leaves the inbounds people potentially unsatisfied, and vice versa.

It's not a good situation.

My guess/opinion is that tele as we know it today can only survive in the long run if the same thing that is happening for bindings happens for boots, and that is that boot manufacturing becomes something where smaller manufacturers (similar to 22 designs or M Equip or Bishop) can innovate and produce a product.

I'm sure plastics manufacturing tech and 3d printing etc. must be coming along and that eventually this will be feasible. It's not my specialty, but I gotta wonder if there's some enterprising young engineer out there who is close to it and we're just a kickstarter away from something if only the right inquiries and research was done.

Even if it's not perfect, it would be a start. I know I personally would throw money at such a project, if only it existed.

[bobbytooslow]

I think it's two different issues. The "great modern telemark boot" that we here romanticize would mainly be targeted at existing tele skiers, as a way to keep them in the sport (to keep them from jumping to AT), and to hopefully recapture some of those who've left (those who enjoy the turn, but who are unwilling to experience the extra suffering when touring).

How many beginners are dropping coin on a full new setup? Something appropriate for new boots would be $800 + $500 (bindings) + $700 (skis) = $2000. Something like T2's and Super Stinx + G3's from the used sporting goods store are great for a beginner, and can be had for a few hundred bucks if you know where to look. They don't need any fancy touring capabilities, because learning the tele turn in the backcountry is a rough go; lift-serve is far more appropriate when learning.

Once they get the turn down a bit and are ready to commit and invest in a better setup, it would benefit everybody -- not just the boot mfrs, but the binding mfrs and retailers too -- if there were a full range of boots so someone can buy with confidence that this expensive new setup is going to adequately meet their needs.

[jtb]

I think it depends on whether those newcomers have an advanced, hard-charging alpine background, or an XC/BC background. For the former, they would do best with stiff boots and bindings that are as close to alpine as possible (Outlaw, TXC/TXP). For the latter, they would do best with a tech toe, heel throw, and lighter/softer boots. UTN is unnecessary for the former, but essential for the latter.

[JackO]

Madsen’s recent podcast geared toward new telemark skiers appears to be his most listened to to date. By a wide margin.

I was surprised to see that: There might really be a decent amount of people interested in starting, and they may be engaging - though so far on a surface level - in higher numbers than people like on this forum. That made me think about the whole chicken and egg situation with boots.

What does a newcomer/beginner need in a boot vs. someone who’s been waiting for the great modern telemark boot from Scarpa for years? How can Scarpa bridge any gap there? Especially with one boot? Can this new, modern, possibly-UTN boot cater to both cohorts? Which cohort is most important to market / cater to?

[telenerd]

If that schedule is going to stick we should see some sort of preview from Scarpa in January. If I had another pair of TX new in a box at this point I almost wouldn't care. But I don't.

Interesting. I spoke with my friend at Scarpa in Boulder last weekend. He said Scarpa does not have any plans for releasing the new boot this upcoming winter and has very little information that the new boot will even be ready by the next season after that. Said don’t hold your breath waiting. Lol

[mo pow]

Madsen did a Q&A on Facebook.


Q: When is Scarpa coming out with new boots?

A: Never...haha. But on a real note, from what I'm hearing it's probably Fall '23 and that is at least 1 boot. No word of a line-up yet.

If that schedule is going to stick we should see some sort of preview from Scarpa in January. If I had another pair of TX new in a box at this point I almost wouldn't care. But I don't.

[bobbytooslow]

Madsen did a Q&A on Facebook.


Q: When is Scarpa coming out with new boots?

A: Never...haha. But on a real note, from what I'm hearing it's probably Fall '23 and that is at least 1 boot. No word of a line-up yet.

[bobbytooslow]

Good explanation, xmatt. All of this illustrates the wisdom & vision of Pierre's rotating toe cage binding.

In a perfect world:
- All tele boots would have tech fittings at the toe and a construction optimized for flexion with a pivoting toe.
- Touring-minded tele bindings would have toe pins.
- Resort-only tele bindings would have a rotating toe cage and no "tour mode" mechanism.
- Bindings that clamp down on the toe lug (and require extra-beefy boot sole construction) wouldn't exist.

But... NTN happened. People are invested. The market won't support yet another big shift like that. And as Madsen has said, there's nobody really steering this thing. A more realistic hope is that things shift gradually, piecemeal, via individual product releases by the various players in the game. Something like:

- Scarpa makes a new T2/F3/Maestrale type boot with construction optimized for flex with a pivoting toe, and it works decently enough in existing fixed toe cage bindings.
- The M releases their rotating toe cage binding, which works great with the new boots and decently enough with existing TXP/TXC/etc. It is simple and cheaper than existing options.
- Scarpa updates the TXP/TXC with a construction more optimized for a rotating toe, but they also work decently enough with existing fixed toe cage bindings.
- Customers vote with their wallets for these newer, simpler bindings, and bindings with a fixed toe cage + tour pivot mechanism go to the dustbin.

[Dostie]

I'm saying that just changing the dimensions wouldn't be enough. Once you start using it in a toe cage, then the boot has to work in a situation where the toe doesn't rotate at all while the bellows is flexed. And it has to work even if someone is "levering" up at the heel, rather than pushing down at the bellows. That makes the boot bend over a shorter distance near the toe than in a TTS or TTN. So, you need tougher plastic there, while keeping flexiblity. I think it is hard to do that: first time Scarpa tried, with the original TX, half the boots cracked.

Ah yes, forgot about that. It is also why TX-Comp won't ever have tech inserts. I'm not sure that is why the early TX's cracked, but the point you make is valid.

[dschane]

Mid-summer greetings. It looks like the discussion on boots remains as robust as ever.

Personally, why not have a T2, F1-model NTN, Maestrale-model NTN and call it good for the next 20 years? The 75mm and NTN folks would be reasonably happy, still have enough to tinker with, and the ROM and weight complaints for NTN users would (should?) be quieter.

the F3 skis about the same as TX.

There may be significant agreement on that point with the TTS crowd, but I don't agree. I find the Tx smoother and more capable of skiing crappy conditions and steeper lines. Maybe I need to tinker with a TTS binding to get the F1/F3 to work for me as well as the Tx, but the Tx/Tx Pro feel very different to me than the F1/F3 boots on the way down.

[xmatt]

Are you saying changing the dimensions of the sole at the toe of an F1/F3 is difficult? C'mon man. They've spent who knows how much trying to engineer other things and that's all it would take? I mean, you're correct, but based on results that is too simple of a solution to be considered. Why?

I'm saying that just changing the dimensions wouldn't be enough. Once you start using it in a toe cage, then the boot has to work in a situation where the toe doesn't rotate at all while the bellows is flexed. And it has to work even if someone is "levering" up at the heel, rather than pushing down at the bellows. That makes the boot bend over a shorter distance near the toe than in a TTS or TTN. So, you need tougher plastic there, while keeping flexiblity. I think it is hard to do that: first time Scarpa tried, with the original TX, half the boots cracked.

My dream: once Voile comes out with TTS, Scarpa will just realize that a tech-toe-only boot is fine with several major tech-toe-only bindings available......

[Dostie]

Are you saying changing the dimensions of the sole at the toe of an F1/F3 is difficult? C'mon man. They've spent who knows how much trying to engineer other things and that's all it would take? I mean, you're correct, but based on results that is too simple of a solution to be considered. Why?

Besides, they could pass the solution to the binding manufacturers who could easily accomodate a different toe shape with plastic nubs on the side of the toe cage to take up the slack. Again, not difficult.

[bobbytooslow]

I think the reason is: they realized that you could get that light weight with decent flex if you didn't worry about it working in an NTN toe cage and made it tech-toe-only. But they don't want to sell a tech-toe-only boot, even though it makes sense for touring, because they have too much invested in NTN. Makes sense to me: working in a toe cage require a lot more plastic up front due to extra stresses on boot.

Interesting idea. It kinda relates to Pierre's idea for an NTN toe cage that rotates about the same axis as toe pins. Nothing is clamped down or prying, and all boots can have the same flex characteristics no matter what.

In an ideal world, this is how NTN would have been from the beginning. But there are too many Outlaw lovers out there and others not wanting yet another norm; any new boot has to be backwards compatible with toe-cage NTN. You're right, reviving an F1/F3 isn't quite as simple as slapping on a duckbutt. The toe lug needs to be redesigned too.