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Advice on installing tech toe inserts?

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  • Advice on installing tech toe inserts?

    I’m installing tech inserts in the toe of my NTN Garmont Kenai’s. I scavenged the through-bolt style tech inserts from bolt on Scarpa sole blocks. I’ve got the sole cut of the toe (hear gun softened the glue and it came off clean, ready to reinstall). Not I’m ready for the tricky dremel work.

    Have any of you doing this and have advice before I jump in?

    Thanks!
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  • #2
    First, you're going to ruin those boots

    Second, garmont kenai NTN? I thought they never existed https://www.backcountrytalk.com/foru...ar-grill/1276-

    Third, I recall somewhere in the past that there are tech toe fittings available that are substantially weaker than the fittings scarpa/dynfit/whoever uses..

    fourth, IF you do it, you need to construct a boot center and adjust the tech fittings mortise to make the line between the cups perpendicular to that constructed centerline so the boot ends up aligned to be on the ski's centerline.

    Fifth, you need to have a perfect mortise, so the fixture doesn't ride on the 2 bolts alone, but rather the 2 bolts and the outline of the mortise so the fixture can't "play" back and forth and work against the bolt holes.

    Sixth, garmont NTN boots are a weird design. The cuff captures the extension of the lower shell to combine with the cuff lock to make a stiffer cuff in ski mode, but then the bellows is so soft that it defeats the point of having a stiffer cuff because the boot just folds up at the bellows when you try to use that extra leverage...

    seventh, after you ruin those boots buy a pair of scarpa boots..
    Last edited by tele.skier; 28 October 2020, 09:10 AM.
    the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

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    • #3
      The boots I have certainly are a Garmont Kenai NTN - if there was ever an open question to whether or not the boot exists this is now a settled topic. Discussion of the merits of the boot aren’t too helpful, it’s the boot I have available to experiment on. Clearly this is a risky undertaking, but this crowd on bct has seemed to encourage experimentation. I’m using the Scarpa insert as it has a good track record and allows for two through bolts. Alignment is clearly of utmost importance.

      I was hoping someone might have some suggestions on how to successfully achieve this alignment and suggestions on glue/epoxy for the steel to pebax.

      Thank you

      Comment


      • #4
        Cool, post a picture of your boots please if you can. I'd like to see a picture of your boots.

        I'm a cabinetmaker by training. I've done some inlay work and I do all kinds of crazy stuff that no one else can do. The picture below is a design that was copied from a stone floor design from some monastery in Europe (I was told) I had to redo the layout because it wasn't accurate enough to make jig to use a router and "ring guide" to remove material for the inlay precisely. The inlay material was glued up by a guy who cuts wood with a laser and does decorative glue lamination. Here's the result..

        Click image for larger version  Name:	zilka's floor.jpg Views:	0 Size:	611.4 KB ID:	104528

        I know a little bit about precise mortising and inlay work. This floor is in NYC somewhere around 83rd on 5th avenue overlooking the museum. I was about 25 years old when I did this job...

        You need a router and ring guide, then you need to make a jig and produce some trial mortises to test for fit. It's a lot of work.

        Edited to add: I previously investigated doing this same procedure to my Txcomps which don't have tech inserts. I decided if I spent the same time working on paid jobs, I could make the money to buy Crispi worldcups which have tech inserts instead of risking ruining a pair of boots and wasting a lot of time.
        Last edited by tele.skier; 28 October 2020, 11:43 AM.
        the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

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        • #5
          I think few folks have tried to do it, less from concern about ruining the boots and more from concern about getting ejected at warp speed. These guys do it and maybe they would offer some advice.

          I have seen pictures of the Kenai NTN boot. I don't know if there was a small production run or only outside of the U.S., but they're unicorns. I have the 75mm version that I picked up this summer for skiing on 3-pin bindings. Two buckle boots need to make a comeback.

          Good luck and post pics. of the process.

          P.S. t.s., I've seen those pictures before. Sick work.
          Last edited by dschane; 28 October 2020, 12:15 PM.

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          • #6
            Here's how the guys at cast do it to alpine boots. Tele boots might be another story, but you might call them and ask. Maybe they have done tele boots too... or maybe they will give you better information

            the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

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            • #7
              The CAST video is instructive. I'm pretty adept with tools and comfortable with one-off projects. I'll post pics and report once completed. It seems Scarpa relied on just the two through bolts holding the insert/sole block in place, so I'm hoping that should work here (with epoxy just to fill any tiny gaps and clean up the install look).

              The other boot option was a Scarpa F3 with bolt on duck but. But this boot presented itself and should be a little more powerful. Perhaps the F3 would have been a better option.

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              • #8
                As you see the Cast people have a clever way to do it by jointing the sole of the boot so they can surface mount their 4 hole fitting, their re-sole application has the mortise to accept the hardware instead of attempting to produce an intricate mortise in the boot toe.

                When I first apprenticed as a cabinetmaker, the first master I worked under told me on day 1, "You need to learn to steal", which drew a huge look of surprise from me,... then he finished his sentence, "With your eyes". Meaning to keep my eyes open and learn by seeing how the experienced people do it.

                Maybe the Cast, joiner method could work for your tele boots. You flatten the toe of your boot a few mm's and make the notches for the cups, then resole the bottom of the boot, making the mortise for the mounted fixture in the resole material, instead of the boot. It sounds a lot easier that way to me... (steal with your eyes,...)
                Last edited by tele.skier; 28 October 2020, 01:48 PM.
                the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by redd View Post
                  The CAST video is instructive. I'm pretty adept with tools and comfortable with one-off projects. I'll post pics and report once completed. It seems Scarpa relied on just the two through bolts holding the insert/sole block in place, so I'm hoping that should work here (with epoxy just to fill any tiny gaps and clean up the install look).

                  The other boot option was a Scarpa F3 with bolt on duck but. But this boot presented itself and should be a little more powerful. Perhaps the F3 would have been a better option.
                  Yes, that video is very instructive.

                  I may be in the minority here re F3/F1 users, but I'm not a fan of those boots for telemark skiing. I have a pair of F1 Races because they're insanely light, but there's something about their design that doesn't translate well with the way I ski (medium to low). I would be far happier to ski the Kenai NTN boots than the F3s, though installing the Michael Bolt-ons is far simpler and I suspect the F3s weigh noticeably less. What are the Kenai's weight?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by redd View Post
                    I’m installing tech inserts in the toe of my NTN Garmont Kenai’s. ... have advice before I jump in?
                    Well, you're going to do it anyway. Good luck.

                    For reference, what CAST does is for using the pins to tour only - not for downhill. Solomon knows a thing or two about poorly installed inserts. Google what happened with their first Dynafit compatible boot. Or search Wild Snow.

                    Since you seem to like the Kenai, the NTN Voodoo is the same thing (one more buckle), only with the tech insert molded into the shell (as it should be).





                    ain't no turn like tele!

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                    • #11
                      Redd-




                      Awesome project, and one as potentially important to the future of Telemarking as the development of TTS.




                      While I don't really have anything to add in terms of technique or material choices, getting the adhesive right is important. Maybe the folks at CAST would be willing to explain how they came to use the epoxy they do- and whether that would be a good choice in a more flexible sole, under greater stress like your application?




                      And, as Dostie pointed out, the Voodoo uses the same lower boot. If all else fails, maybe attaching the cuffs from the Kenai in place of the rigid, tall cuffs on a pair of Voodoos could get you the same result? A 2 buckle TTN boot is THE missing element for a lot of us.




                      What I do know- everything is impossible until somebody works through a process that gets results. If you bite off a project that's manageable with your skill set, you will likely get something close to your ideal. Even if you don't you will learn useful things.




                      I recently cut fish scales into a model of ski only available with a flat base. I asked for advice on a couple of forums, hoping for some kind of feedback. Even concerning that simple project, most of what I got was negative; I'd ruin new skis, get no grip, yadda yadda.




                      They turned out great, in fact every bit as functional as commercially made ones but in dimensions I couldn't buy.




                      So please- use your judgement, be careful, test glues before you trust them... but carry on and PLEASE let the rest of us know how you make out.

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                      • #12
                        Now that you guys have brought up Voodoos and fish scales I’m thinking about grinding some fish scales in my old Fischer Voodoos!

                        Why not!

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                        • #13
                          On the same subject, has anyone tried adding Dynafit tech heel inserts to more recent Scarpa boots? Could be interesting with Meidjo bindings and their alpine heel option.

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                          • #14
                            It's "doable", but again, not without a high level of skill. I seriously doubt anyone will be freehanding the cuts needed to make the mortise for the heel fixture. I've looked into it a bit, and I was amazed that the whole heel system relies on a single screw and post attached to the fixture, so I presume that part of the integrity of the heel connection is a good fit of the fixture to the mortise in the boot. This way, the force between the fixture and the binding pins are reinforced by direct contact with the material of the boot... Maybe that's more obvious than I think...
                            the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

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                            • #15
                              Thanks all for all the tips. I think I'm going to use the duckbut t-bolt inserts to attach a simple alignment tool to properly locate the holes for my toe insert bolts. From there, it's going to be delicate surgery for the inserts. It's going to take me a while before I free up the time to get this done, but I'll definitely post an update with pics once done.

                              Thanks again!

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