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  • #16
    Originally posted by chamonix View Post
    I am not sure about that. I think one positive aspect to tele skiing , is that you always get a "forward release" in a fall. In the sense, that if you fall forward, your heel always comes up from the ski. Because it's not attached, and you have a bellowed boot.
    On AT setups, on the other hand, I worry that in a forward fall, you depend on that upward release mechanism at the heel, to free you from the ski. And an AT, pin binding, in a forward, twisting fall, depends for a lateral release at the heel..

    It sounds crazy, but skiing at higher speed, at a resort, I feel safer on a tele binding as I don't have to worry about a pre-release. I have had an AT binding, pre-release, as I chattered over an icy section, say with my old Dynafit Verticals. Even once with the newer Dynafit Rotation ST, with the rotating toe piece.
    Personally I think the biggest chance for injury is a twisting fall and not a simple forward fall. Tele skiing gear is not reliable in a twisting fall release and older tele gear has no release in any fall. So you assume the risk with strong legs, great technique and skiing in a manner with a margin of safe control. IMO, from someone who has skied pin AT gear for over ten years, it is a bad idea to ski pin AT as a daily driver at a resort on resort snow. They are not reliable at resort speeds either for pre release or fall release. Want to fix heel at resorts, simply get a Alpine ski setup and have the best chance for safety and performance.

    For me, I ski fishscale tele and pin AT gear in the BC and full on Alpine gear at the resort. My tele skis have rocker so a better chance of not hooking obstacles under the snow but ski them with a big margin of slow and cautious. I have had plenty of release with pin AT in the BC and some have saved me from injury without a doubt.
    "Just say no to groomed snow"

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    • #17
      Jasonq wrote,
      I always think of it as telemark is tough on your muscles, since you are using your muscles to keep from pancaking. And the position is naturally flexible, so bumps and hits cause you to absorb in you muscles and flex. Alpine is tougher on your joints because you use more skeleton to keep from pancaking.
      I agree, Telemarking through bumps (I avoid big ones) is much easier on my back, as my knees, and hips can absorb changes in terrain. A day of hard charging at the resort, with fixed heel, I can really feel it in my back and hips. The rigid Alpine (even a softer 3 buckle AT boot) sends all the energy and every bump up into your knees and lower back.

      But the power of a fixed heel setup, on a day with perfect groomers can be seductive..

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      • #18
        Quad wrote,
        it is a bad idea to ski pin AT as a daily driver at a resort on resort snow. They are not reliable at resort speeds either for pre release or fall release. Want to fix heel at resorts, simply get a Alpine ski setup and have the best chance for safety and performance.
        Well, the rare times I ski AT at the resort, it is because I want to skin up, either in the middle of the day, or before the lifts have even started running. Later I will look for a ski partner or even go off solo for a quiet backcountry run. So no need to change ski boots, in the cold car; just grab a set of skins, and a pack. Far away from the giant Hamster Wheel of resort skiing.

        I also find true Alpine ski boots incredibly heavy, constricting and clunky. I don't want to go back to the 4 buckle, cold Alpine boots, like the Lange Comps I skied for years. The true Alpine boots, also are very rigid, transmitting every bump and hard landing straight up my spine. So I prefer to ski a softer AT boot, like my Maestrale RS, or even Scarpa F1s. All with warm, Intuition liners too.
        I do dial my speed back, at the resort, a bit on an AT pin setup too. Just don't fall ! Click image for larger version

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        Last edited by chamonix; 10 October 2020, 08:52 PM.

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        • #19
          [QUOTE=chamonix;n10413
          I also find true Alpine ski boots incredibly heavy, constricting and clunky. I don't want to go back to the 4 buckle, cold Alpine boots, like the Lange Comps I skied for years. The true Alpine boots, also are very rigid, transmitting every bump and hard landing straight up my spine. So I prefer to ski a softer AT boot, like my Maestrale RS, or even Scarpa EVOs.
          I do dial my speed back, at the resort, a bit on an AT pin setup too. Just don't fall ![/QUOTE]

          Well sure dark age Alpine boots are heavy but new school Alpine boots are light(as compared) so, just weighed my Alpine Boots Salomon SMax 120's size 28 complete with aftermarket foot beds. 7# 8oz for the pair. Compare that to any resort tele boot. But yeah, in your situation of ducking the rope and I do that on occasion, AT gear is a good choice for a few warm up laps and the ability to slog out or climb out.
          Click image for larger version

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          "Just say no to groomed snow"

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          • #20
            My Maestrale RS (size 28.5) are 3lbs 8 ounces each (1600 grams) , so 7 lbs a pair. With a Superfeet Green footbed. They still have a soft enough, progressive flex, that I was able to ski with them in France again, for a week in February, 3Vallee with no back pain.
            Not the power of a true Alpine boot, but something I could ski with all week, comfortable Intuition liners, no problems. Just walking up and down stairs, boarding trams, I could reach down, and unlock the cuff for an easy walk . Super-comfortable for even grocery shopping in the SPAR.
            Last edited by chamonix; 10 October 2020, 08:54 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by jnicol View Post
              Jasonq,

              is the spring 2021 the first you feel you will be able to ski again?!? What a terribly long haul this has been for you!! Keep up the hard work, I hope you eventually make it back to good!
              Yeah, pretty sure i won't be there for tele until spring. I should be good for XC classic at first snow, and skate shortly after. It will be the longest i have gone without skiing down hills since i started skiing, which was young enough i don't even remember not skiing.

              Originally posted by Dostie View Post
              THAT's a good answer. But kiting isn't exactly a sport without knee stresses either. ;-)
              if i learn to foil, every day is butter smooth. And strapless mean no torquing falls. I currently ride neither a foil nor strapless, but if i had all winter in baja...

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              • #22
                Originally posted by chamonix View Post
                I just want to add, everyone I know who kept skiing resort fixed heel, have had major knee problems, bone on bone. or have now quit skiing altogether. I firmly believe that telemark skiing has saved my knees, to still ski on at the resorts, (well I ski backcountry AT now, but that is soft snow)...
                Skiing backcountry and even a few trips to Yurp for resort skiing, with fixed heel, I have a relatively soft AT boot. So not too much stress on my knees..
                Same.

                I alternated between tele and alpine and I find that alpine locks me in too much and really strains my knees.

                I always wear arc'teryx kneepads, and I think they act somewhat similar to a knee brace, and have helped over the years. Have also used tender bandages but find the kneepads easier to put on, plus the protection obviously.
                Soccer is a game of feet. Hockey is a game of inches.

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                • #23
                  Steve K wrote,
                  I always wear arc'teryx kneepads, and I think they act somewhat similar to a knee brace, and have helped over the years. Have also used tender bandages but find the kneepads easier to put on, plus the protection obviously.
                  Knee pads for me are a must have item, for tele, unless I do a few careful resort runs, strictly on smooth groomers. Any time I am touring, or in a glade run, I want to have knee pads. Lately I like the Black Diamond ones, though I have the Arcteryx ones too. Knee pads keep my knees warmer on a cold chair lift ride, and like Steve said also act as a knee brace..

                  But knee pads are also a PIA, for skinning, limiting the flexibilty of my knees for a long climb and sapping more energy. Generally I take them off for a skin up. But I will often just leave them on for multiple, short laps in the woods. Another reason why I now prefer AT for touring, no knee pads to take on and off at transitions. I do know some patrollers on Alpine gear, who wear knee pads at the resort all the time, so they are ready to kneel, either helping at an accident, or working on snow fences.

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                  • #24
                    I put my knee pads on when I get dressed in the morning and forget about them until I get back to the car. Arct'ryx or BD are both so comfortable for me I'd feel nekkid on the mountain without them.

                    As for alpine boots--including AT boots--not for me. I like my soft tele boots just fine for everything I want to ski. They have plenty of power for my purposes. The only condition where they fall short are icy frozen chicken heads. Yeah, you can do a lot more with them in alpine gear but it's not worth not being able to tele for me.

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                    • #25
                      I guess I'm the only one here that got a knee job. From and old geezer:

                      I just got my total replacement knee a month ago. Both knees are shot, bone-on-bone and severe arthritis. My left knee (the one I got under the knife) got wrecked in '75. At that time, they performed a "Lt Med Meniscectomy Poss Pes Tr"; basically jerked out the meniscus and cut my tendon and pegged it in another place to stabilize my knee. I was in a full cast.
                      With therapy, I got better and had full motion. I was working in the woods, and back to forest fire fighting in a couple of years. Backpacking.
                      Ate a lot of aspirin and icing when I was long hours on my feet. And meters of ace bandages.
                      So my knees kept degenerating and I fought it as long as I could stand. I didn't even get on my skis last winter. I picked this time of year so I could enjoy summer, and possible get on my skis maybe later in winter.

                      I started dinging my knees when I was 18,in my downhill days (1966). I skied GS skis with Marker bindings cranked down and long-straps around my leather buckel boots. I didn't race, I just liked to haul.
                      Last edited by Nobody; 23 October 2020, 05:09 PM.

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                      • #26
                        My recovery is taking way longer than the surgeon said. Almost 5 weeks now I think. I can ride a bike now but still have to take it easy as twisting feels wrong. My physiotherapist gave me a bunch of exercises and I’m noticing some improvement already. Starting to be able to work myself a bit harder. Aiming for dec 1 on snow (or earlier)

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                        • #27
                          My chiropractor recommending laser treatment after my surgery. The benefit is stimulating the blood flow.
                          I had to pass, as I already have to drive 40 miles for my therapy sessions. I had to be chauffered until I could get my left knee working to deal with my clutch and dropping my OxyCodone. I'm droving now so I will will give it a try.

                          https://www.reflexknees.com/

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by jnicol View Post
                            My recovery is taking way longer than the surgeon said. Almost 5 weeks now I think. I can ride a bike now but still have to take it easy as twisting feels wrong. My physiotherapist gave me a bunch of exercises and I’m noticing some improvement already. Starting to be able to work myself a bit harder. Aiming for dec 1 on snow (or earlier)
                            My knee surgery 16 years ago was same leg patellar tendon graft, 70% of the meniscus removed (the pictures inside my knee looked like fringe), chondroplasty (cleaning up rough cartilege), and microfracture. I had to wait 4 weeks with no weight bearing. When I started PT I had full ROM but the first PT I had would not let me stand without holding me by the elbow. I asked for a different therapist. The second one knew just how to challenge me and just when to hold me back. When I told her I wanted to ski on sand dunes at 18 weeks she said, "Don't make me laugh in your face." But she told me she was working with a CU football cornerback who could pick up cones all around him while standing one-legged on a bosu ball at 12 weeks. We spent a lot of time with me one-legged standing on the bosu ball and she throwing different objects at me to catch and I did the cone trick at 10 weeks. I started running at 12 weeks. I passed my final exam at 16 weeks by doing three consecutive jumps on my repaired knee and my last jump was >85% of my first. Two orthopedic surgeons, one a tele skier, said ok to skiing and I skied at 18 weeks with a brace. I used the brace for one season and while I still have it, I have not used it since.

                            I think my acl is probably gone again after hitting a tree 5 years ago. But the graft was never very tight from the start. At my current age of 64 the next time I see an orthopedic surgeon for my left knee it will be TKR and I'm putting that off as long as possible. Do what your PT says. Back off of anything that causes more swelling. See how it goes. Best of luck to you!

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                            • #29
                              while no surgery, i am still in the recovery process, 10 months on from 3 fractures and three partial ligament tears spread between left knee and ankle. 6 weeks of no weight bearing. And another 6 before i could walk without crutches or poles. Another 3 before i could go up stairs, another 3 before i could go down stairs, and jog for a few hundred yards. 6 months and i was kiteboarding, but only the equivalent of groomers.

                              What i have learned so far.
                              a good PT/PT support system is key. one that understands where you need to get back to and how hard they need to push you. I was lucky in getting a good PT (climber) right off the bat, with consults from a PT that is a ski partner of mine.

                              learn the difference between good pain and bad pain when recovering. And embracing the good pain. avoid the bad pain. its bad for a reason.

                              be very deliberately aware of any compensations you are doing, and stop doing those immediately, period.

                              for me, in that 12 weeks between weight bearing and a little jogging, the AlterG was hugely helpful. it allowed me to walk and jog at a lower weight and focus on form and relearning all the motions. I used it for about 30 minutes a week starting my second weight bearing week. I can't tell you how psychologically lifting it was to walk even if it was only at 40% body weight. (I also was one of the original developers of the AlterG when i worked at NASA ages ago)

                              be very deliberate about doing those everyday things you never thought about that can now lead to bad pain. things like getting in and out of car where you tend to pivot on the left leg while lowering or standing.

                              bike, bike, bike, bike. and then bike. I got a stationary bike for home and ramped up to about 45 minutes/day at ~100 watts until i could start being more active outside. and have now taper off to about 45 minutes every other day, either real bike or stationary + other activities.

                              walk, walk, walk, walk, and then walk.

                              We'll see what happens when i ski again. I plan to spend the first half of the season focusing on XC, classic and skate, to build back up. then hit the lifts. I plan to be very deliberate about each day skiing with specific goals and stick to them.

                              getting old sucks. and getting hurt sucks. both together really suck.

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                              • #30
                                Thanks guys, good advice here.

                                My physiotherapist is excellent. He knows I work hard and he gives me tons of exercises. I go through the rotation 3 times a day, plus ad hoc work.

                                Just started riding a bike yesterday on real trails. Knee was pretty tired last night. But out again today and it was less noticeable today. PT advised I try to add cycling daily to my routine, whether on a real bike or trainer, so I'll try to keep it up. Gotta dig the trainer out of the closet and clean off the dust. I was rowing though for about a week. Just an easy 1000m but I can go to where the tightness is and not push, which is nice to have that much control.

                                On balance I'm still a little frustrated by how slow it is and that I can still get surprising shocks of pain. But, while the progress is slow, there is progress, and I still have about month till I need to be on snow.... lots of time

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