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  • F1/Duckbutt parts/photos

    A huge thanks to bobbytooslow and dschane for the posts they've put up before. Just thought a quick write up of how I did this in the hopes that it saves others some time. Even with trial and error, finding the boots and measuring for the bolts took longer than installing.

    I cut the Vibram sole with a razor blade (carefully) just before the heel, then loosened the glue under the rubber sole with a hair dryer. I scraped it back with a paint scraper, and then cut across the front, leaving the center of the boot with no sole.

    I'm sure that using a jig would be much more accurate, but I just set it up using a dab of silicone for stability on the Duck Butt and then aligning it into a 22D Outlaw. Once it was aligned, I carefully marked, then drilled the holes, [checking the alignment again, and again] and finally installed the bolts.

    I haven't used them outside of a bunch of flexes in the living room but they feel solid as hell.

    Parts:
    Michael duck butts (I used shapeways with the carved out insert)
    inserts: https://www.mcmaster.com/94884A103
    6mm bolts: https://www.mcmaster.com/90666A128/
    12mm bolts: https://www.mcmaster.com/90666A131/
    loc tite
    silicone

    Tools:
    drill bit
    hair dryer
    paint scraper
    razor blade
    hex key for the bolts

  • #2
    Nice work. That looks like a pretty light weight boot. I'm guessing that you'll need to finesse your turns in those if you usually wear a more burly boot. Report back once you get them out on their maiden voyage.
    the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

    Comment


    • #3
      Very nice! Thanks for sharing. I have a big roll of rubber sheeting for covering the screw heads. PM me your address and I'll send you some.

      It's mentioned in the other reviews, but the main difference compared to burly boots is that there's a smaller sweet spot. It takes a little time to adjust your technique so that you're always on it, but it's definitely there.

      Comment


      • #4
        PM sent bobbytooslow - thanks!

        The next thing to figure out is this tongue - something slicker than just cutting it down the center.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by bobbytooslow View Post
          It's mentioned in the other reviews, but the main difference compared to burly boots is that there's a smaller sweet spot. It takes a little time to adjust your technique so that you're always on it, but it's definitely there.
          T.S. is right and BTS's quote is worthy of quoting. The hardest challenge for me is that it takes me a few runs to feel that spot and get comfortable enough to embrace steep lines, but I typically take this set-up out when I'm going to hike hours for minutes of skiing, so I don't really have the luxury of laps. Modern problems, for sure.

          And nice, clean work on the sole!

          Comment


          • #6
            Agreed on the smaller sweet spot. This is completely different from 75mm gear! On 75mm gear, as you go from leathers, to T2, to T-race, and go from 3-pins to stiff cables, the sweet spot increases, but also the edge control and the rotational control greatly increase. Leathers and 3-pins just are floppy and no amount of technique or balance can fully make up for that in some snow conditions.

            On TTS with F1 boots, you might have a small sweet but you have very solid edge control and fairly solid rotational control. Balance can make up for the smaller sweet spot and you can still ski tough stuff, even if you have to be a little more careful.

            Slightly related, here's an awesome video showing the limits of old school gear. This is old school alpine gear, not old school tele, but I think it's leather boots. This is Didier Cuche, a world cup racer whose hard snow technique is probably as good as anyone on the planet, skiing his last ever world cup race on old school gear. Sliding sideways, arms flailing for balance..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9NS...el=LucasKroell

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by xmatt View Post
              Slightly related, here's an awesome video showing the limits of old school gear. This is old school alpine gear, not old school tele, but I think it's leather boots. This is Didier Cuche, a world cup racer whose hard snow technique is probably as good as anyone on the planet, skiing his last ever world cup race on old school gear. Sliding sideways, arms flailing for balance..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9NS...el=LucasKroell
              Ha. That visually sums up how I feel every first run, when I've gone from Tx Pros to the F1 in the Lynx.

              Comment


              • #8
                That video reminds me of the FHL posts of their annual "smelly kneepad" day.

                And yes, the older I get, the more and more I feel like that.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Great video. It illustrates how a skier who's technique is so heavily dependent on leverage effectively becomes a beginner on gear which has no leverage. My comment isn't made to insult the him, just to point out for the 1000th time how gear leverage has changed technique... Here's the classic picture of a dick durrance showing how it's done without leverage...

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	poster-dur-sissies-lunch-2.jpg Views:	0 Size:	74.3 KB ID:	103731

                  I ski my boots of death and my Tx's. Granted, the tx probably isn't as soft as the F1, but the same effect is felt when you go from the stiff boot to the soft one. You can feel the soft boot deform when you push it hard to pressure the ski. Soft boots have limitations on the amount of "power technique" can be used with them, so you just dial back the hard driving and ride the ski more using your balance and intuitive skill to aim the skis where they don't load up so heavily...

                  I appreciate my Tx's, and how I have to adjust my technique to use them when I tour. I don't think the softer quality of a dedicated touring boot is a "flaw". Both the F1 and the F3's I've seen look like the next step in design for higher quality touring boots in tele gear. It should be interesting to see how much the new touring boots look like the F1 and F3, when they finally arrive.
                  Last edited by tele.skier; Yesterday, 09:22 AM.
                  the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Durrance is using vorlage in that photo. From a contemporary account "His stance is with the feet well separated with his vorlage crouched down onto and between his skis, yet out over them".

                    What is vorlage? From a 1937 book review "Vorlage--forward lean--boots to fit your feet; harness to fit your boots; harness to hold your heel down on the ski and give you something to lean against for forward you must lean. Vorlage!" So, I think Dick was basically using his bindings as if they were HH#7 or so. Partly this was necessary because the skis he was on were so hard to bend into an arc. Modern skis can be bent without that forward pressure, just using edging.

                    Not to disagree that gear shapes technique, and not to disagree that a leading alpine skier of the past would probably be better on old gear than a leading alpine skier of today (and not to disagree that Dick might totally outski most people with him on wood skis and them on modern gear), but I don't agree that that photo shows an alpine version of the kind of technique one would use on very neutral tele gear.

                    btw, still loving my F1R boots and neutral TTS bindings! cause you can just edge things with them. Having skied F1R and TX, the F1R is less supportive fore-aft and deforms even more, but it still edges great.
                    Last edited by xmatt; Yesterday, 12:42 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Well, Vorlage without stiff plastic boots only keeps your heels planted on the ski so you can steer more powerfully, it's not boot leverage generated by stiff boots, which was the subject I was talking about as "Power technique". HH on 7 with leather boots doesn't do the same thing as with stiff Scarpa T1's... Right?
                      the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The interesting thing here is that the F1 (exp. the F1 Race/Carbon, which have no tongues) are manageable for alpine turns. Well, combined with Lynx, they are. That is, the difference between my Tx Pros (or Txs) and the F1s isn't that great if I'm making only alpine turns (with the caveat that I'm a sh'tty alpine skier, so would I really notice?!). But, when I try to make tele turns, the F1s can, for the first couple of runs, feel like meadow skipping non-plastic boots (if you ever have tried to make tele turns on hardpack or steep terrain in Karhu Convert boots or their equivalent, you should know what I mean).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          tele.skier, agreed, leather is different from plastic and his boots are doing something very different to plastic in HH#7 or even HH#5. Though I do think he's generating more tip pressure than he would need to on modern skis. Hard to say though, unless we've got the gear in front of us.

                          Originally posted by dschane View Post
                          The interesting thing here is that the F1 (exp. the F1 Race/Carbon, which have no tongues) are manageable for alpine turns. Well, combined with Lynx, they are. That is, the difference between my Tx Pros (or Txs) and the F1s isn't that great if I'm making only alpine turns (with the caveat that I'm a sh'tty alpine skier, so would I really notice?!). But, when I try to make tele turns, the F1s can, for the first couple of runs, feel like meadow skipping non-plastic boots (if you ever have tried to make tele turns on hardpack or steep terrain in Karhu Convert boots or their equivalent, you should know what I mean).
                          That's interesting to hear because my experience is the opposite. I need my tele turn to ski them well, at least on TTS. Caveat, my current preferred style for them is flowing between the two turn styles, kind of constantly launching into a turn and letting it end up as alpine or tele as it wants.

                          Anyway, to the extent that gear shapes styles, this stuff should shape a different style as it has a much higher ratio of (edge control)/(stability) than almost anything else.

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