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The Covidemic plague on skiing makes me sick

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tele.skier View Post
    Those are arguments from authority,... in other words you name some highly esteemed people and claim their highly esteemed status proves they are right... I disagree with them. I think Trump is right about a lot of our country's policies. I don't care that he offends the traditional republicans, I don't think any more of them then I do of Trump. (and he's certainly a warts and all guy)

    Like anyone can these days, I can go into full on google mode and find occasions where every single one of those people emphatically stated their opinion which then turned out to be wrong... because that's how we all are. We're wrong occasionally, but few of us act like you about it, with derisive comments, using insulting names for people you hate and people you are trying to argue with. You're just like Trump, and one of the qualities I wish he exercised less.

    Think of all the policy mistakes which made up the different disasters which happened over the last 70 years. All of those highly esteemed types of people were contributors to the policy ideas that contributed to those mistakes. No Ivy league law degree makes them smarter than anyone else, maybe more sanctimonious, but no less prone to be wrong on occasion. This isn't math or science we're talking about where 1+1= 2, where no matter who adds it up it's still the same. This is political science where if you believe "Bernie" then you are breaking windows and stealing $hit, because of the "billionaires" and "Millionaires"... If you believe Obama, (or his henchmen who did his dirty work) then everyone is racist. It's sickening and basically a false generalization. There's no clear math for right and wrong, so you have to have beliefs and be willing to listen to other people's opinions and consider their arguments.

    There's endless research to prove whatever you wish to prove on the internet, much of it documented properly and proposed as some extrodinary wisdom.

    " You're on the wrong side of history pal. And it won't treat you kindly." That's cryptic baloney. Pat yourself on the back some more for agreeing with yourself.

    It doesn't matter what happens in the election, if Trump is elected and the economy takes off, our soldiers all come home, and their a more peaceful world, some pundits will credit Clinton/bush/obama/whoever. If Biden wins, and anything bad happens at all, those same pundits will blame Trump...

    We all know that is true of all political factions... I have to do some WORK now...
    So, sentiments like this will be cited by future historians as emblematic of this period in history: Truth itself has been politicized; Experts know nothing; The fact that humanity is complex and no one is right about all of its aspects is proof that all ideas are equal.

    I think the complexity of the human condition will only continue to grow. Are we up against the limits of humanity's ability to parse that out accurately? I wish I were smart enough to know how this all will end.
    Last edited by bastardsonoffhw; 16 September 2020, 11:45 AM.


    • #32
      Okay...back on topic.

      My local bump is indicating they will lay out their plans in early October as to where they go with covid. Seems a bit early to try and decide a path. Schools are back in and as expected there are spikes. How bad will it get? November might be a better time for the resort to make a decision.

      I plan to buy a pass but have a fall back plan to ski in one of our local parks. Years ago when the kids were still living under the roof and snow was a bit more consistent I shunned the lift served. Wasn't my thing in leather boots and skinny sticks. Eventually speed got into my blood and I went back to the lifts. Nice to know that the option still exists for earning your turns. Some nice easy up trails that suit waxing just fine with steeper tree covered slopes down to the uphill track.

      Certainly glad our leaders did a somewhat decent job of getting on top of this thing and there is hope that we see some normalcy as winter rolls out. Most/all my skiing is first thing in the morning and I don't see a reservation type system getting in the way of that. Weekends and night time could be different in that respect. The joys of retirement and skiing when you like cannot be underestimated. Many days when it was cold rain or super cold and windy I would be the only one on the hill with two lifts running. Felt a bit guilty but carried on regardless.

      Anywho, hope you all get out and have a great winter.


      • #33
        Just have to post, if only once more, to say my how things get revealed. FHW used to be one of only two posters I had on block (oddly the other--still on--was his constant punching bag,...a conversation destroyer well deserving it). I was put off most by FHW's terrorist threats ("if we meet I will boot punch you in the mouth.") Now he shows his true colors and I'm honored to call him my countryman. Others, whom I've read much but understood much less, now reveal why. A corruption I can't fathom. We live in a huge society with a vast bureaucracy built and funded by compromises over hundreds of years. Wisely, a civil service system was established to maintain at least a semblance of justice, operating on a system of laws-not-men. Now along come nihilists who want to blow it all up as the deep state, install nothing but cronies to control all aspects of the system, consider what I want only to oppose it, and prepare for armed struggle if the electoral process goes against you. You are not my countrymen. Over.
        nee, Whiteout


        • #34
          My silkscreen poster from '68 before I went to war.
          Time to unfurl.


          • #35


            • #36
              Wishing peace, health, understanding, unity, and a lot of good telemark turns for the future


              • #37
                Admittedly the imposition of a reservation system for skiing is political. All the political posts prove that even though, "theoretically" it is a medical issue. Despite everything being so politically charged this days, and the polarization of it all at an extreme level, there are important logistical concerns to this reservation concept. THAT is what I was hoping y'all might discuss. Sadly the conversation devolved almost immediately. What does the melanin content of a person's skin have to do with a reservation system? What does the POTUS have to do with the reservation system? Is it federally mandated (uh, sort of)?

                I've been dealing with a reservation system to maintain the backbone of my fitness program, swimming laps. It is 100% bullcrap. First, the online database used to implement it is worse than the system I developed on my own for Couloir subscriptions back in the 90s. So, my first concern is the quality and integrity of the database system being used. Can it withstand tens of thousands of simultaneous requests without crashing? Based on what I've seen at the local government level, probably not. Is Ikon or Epic or any of the participating resorts capable/willing to hire IT pros who can deliver a rock solid online reservation system?

                Secondly, and this is more important, there is zero flexibility to the reality of how humans manage their time. What if I don't want to fight the crowds on I-70 (for example) getting to the parking lot, but am willing to take a chance to miss the golden first hours of fresh tracks and get slopping seconds by arriving late and gambling that I'll find a parking space. With a reservation system the chance that there will be an empty spot is high ('cuz many of those lucky enough to grab a reservation may come early and leave early) , but the "legal" ability to use it is nil. Do I need to wear my permission slip to get on the lift?

                What about missed opportunities because I couldn't log in on time? Will IKON or EPIC refund the lack of access? Yes, I can defer my pass for a year but I don't want to wait an entire year, I want my money's worth! What defines getting your money's worth? The cost of the pass divided by the cost of a day pass? So, what, 5 days constitutes getting my money's worth? IMO anything less than 20 days means a pass is not worth it. Anything more than $40/day makes this sport too expensive to continue.

                What about the overflow onto backcountry trailheads? Will this create a "demand" for a reservation system for access to "public" land?

                And on and on the ramifications go.

                ain't no turn like tele!


                • #38
                  How would/will the reservation systems handle someone who reserves a particular day but for whatever reason does not show up? There has to be a feature that prevents people from reserving "just in case" they want to ski. Is there some sort of penalty, or a cap on number of times you can no-show?


                  • #39
                    Dostie The logistics of it all fascinate me too. The #1 essential part of any system is having all skiers carry scannable cards (barcode or RFID) that the resort controls the validity of in real time. In other words, your pass -- be it season pass, day ticket, 10 pack, whatever -- will only scan as "good" on the days/times you've secured access for. If you try to access the lifts at a time when your pass is not valid, you won't be able to get on. Folks will learn pretty quickly that there's no point in showing up if they haven't properly secured access for that day.

                    Yeah, having this work flawlessly is asking a lot of most resorts' IT departments. Probably the big conglomerates have the resources to pull it off, but smaller independent resorts will struggle.

                    mo pow I agree there needs to be some sort of penalty for multiple no-shows. I asked our GM how that part will work, and he kinda grimaced "Yeah that part is gonna be tricky." I think they're hoping they can do nothing, and that nobody will complain.

                    One reason Jackson Hole states for halting pass sales is that they need to make sure they can accommodate the tickets sold "through their lodging partners." In other words, they don't want to have to miss out on the extremely rich guests who bought all-inclusive stay-&-ski packages. Basically, if you're rich enough, you can still buy your way onto the mountain, limits/reservations be damned.


                    • #40
                      The resorts around me already have a system for reserving specific dates. If you buy a dated ticket and don't show up, too bad, you don't get a refund. The cap on dated tickets sold for each day is modeled on an assumption about how many people with passes or bulk un-dated tickets will show up on that day. When the parking lot fills up, even those with season passes get turned away, though some can still get to the mountain other ways. As BTS said, I would expect stricter enforcement using the RFID system this year. That system more or less works, in the sense that those who buy passes or un-dated tickets are generally able to use them enough that they don't complain.

                      Obviously if the number of people allowed on the mountain gets cut by 2/3, the whole model changes and you'll have a lot more pissed off people who can't use their season passes or un-dated tickets. I hope what happens is un-dated tickets are allowed to roll over until a non-COVID year, and season pass holders get a partial refund or credit. However, I think this all depends on the financial solvency of the resort. They were hit hard last year, and I expect them to get hit harder this year. Of course I want a refund or credit for the tickets or pass I couldn't use, but what good is it if the resort shuts down permanently?

                      The point about limiting access to public land is especially relevant right now, as all national forest land in CA is still closed. I'm going crazy and about to the point of breaking the law -- everything around me is national forest land. I think there are a lot of people still using it. I understand the reason for the closure and I sympathize with the rangers and firefighters who are being stretched to their limit right now. I think this is a good indication of what's to come -- rules will be made, some will circumvent them, and the powers that be hope that a poorly enforced rule keeps enough people away to achieve whatever their goal is.

                      There's a middle ground between what's right and what the resorts and the government are obligated to do. I hope they strike the right balance, but in the end it's up to them and we don't have much recourse. Like with my gym membership, I'll suffer some, they'll suffer a lot, and I hope both sides recover. Man, 2020 sucks.
                      Last edited by jtb; 19 September 2020, 08:51 AM.


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by mo pow View Post
                        How would/will the reservation systems handle someone who reserves a particular day but for whatever reason does not show up? There has to be a feature that prevents people from reserving "just in case" they want to ski. Is there some sort of penalty, or a cap on number of times you can no-show?
                        Public lashings?

                        Reservations are political Dostie? The leaves are starting to fall from the trees. Just politics I'm sure.


                        • #42
                          JTB wrote,
                          The resorts around me already have a system for reserving specific dates. If you buy a dated ticket and don't show up, too bad, you don't get a refund.
                          The ski resorts like this. They force you to buy your non-refundable day pass, weeks in advance, then if you can't make it to ski, they sell your reserved "slot" to someone else !
                          Win-Win !
                          I just spoke to someone in Season Pass/Ticket sales at our local mountain. She claims that there will be no reservation system for skiers, or limited sales of day passes. I suggested, that if the parking lot is full, and social distancing is observed, how will that work?
                          Tram will be limited to 15 people (wearing masks of course). Right now it can carry 55 people.
                          Lineups anyone ?
                          Last edited by chamonix; 19 September 2020, 09:51 AM.


                          • #43
                            The area where I ski has published notification that masking and social distancing will be required. Does that mean the Quad-chair is now a "1 at a time" chair?... If they had "2 at a time" the people wouldn't be 6 feet apart. Will they be installing partitions of some sort? It's going to go from "weekend $hitshow" to "every day $hitshow".

                            I'll be bringing the entire quiver every visit, so I'll go Xcountry skiing or go for a tour when the $hit is too deep riding the lifts. I suppose they got me to buy a season pass, so they got my money which is essential for their survival. If the quad chair at alpental is loading 1 person at a time, the $hitstorm that passholders create will be significant...
                            the fall line is your friend.... resistance is futile


                            • #44
                              After what you guys said about Jay Peak and Alpental, and seeing how A-Basin has abandoned their lottery system, it's almost like the plan is to have no plan. Just see how things shake out.

                              Perhaps they figure if they start the season in a partially ratcheted-down state, a rise in statewide cases will make them have to ratchet down further from whatever they're currently doing. So might as well start as un-ratcheted as possible.

                              Perhaps (hopefully) they're working behind the scenes to build the infrastructure that'll allow them to function at increasing defcon levels, and they're waiting to implement it until they absolutely have to.

                              Or maybe they're just closing their eyes and saying la-la-la I can't hear you, hoping that the virus just kinda disappears.


                              • #45
                                Latest on what I heard for Mt Rose and some others is no reservations for season pass holders,, so depending on your pass any time your pass allows. The chair lift is filled by groups of friends or if only one will load single. As far as day tickets, Rose is sold out for season passes so no day ticket sales. That is the basics not sure what other resorts will do. Of course a big spike in virus state government might shut the resorts down

                                Ski touring should be like mtb here, no spread no restrictions
                                "Just say no to groomed snow"